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Arc-AGI-2: 84.6% (vs 68.8% for Opus 4.6)
Wow.
https://blog.google/innovation-and-ai/models-and-research/ge...
Even before this, Gemini 3 has always felt unbelievably 'general' for me. It can beat Balatro (ante 8) with text description of the game alone[0]. Yeah, it's not an extremely difficult goal for humans, but considering:
1. It's an LLM, not something trained to play Balatro specifically
2. Most (probably >99.9%) players can't do that at the first attempt
3. I don't think there are many people who posted their Balatro playthroughs in text form online
I think it's a much stronger signal of its 'generalness' than ARC-AGI. By the way, Deepseek can't play Balatro at all.
Per BalatroBench, gemini-3-pro-preview makes it to round (not ante) 19.3 ± 6.8 on the lowest difficulty on the deck aimed at new players. Round 24 is ante 8's final round. Per BalatroBench, this includes giving the LLM a strategy guide, which first-time players do not have. Gemini isn't even emitting legal moves 100% of the time.
It beats ante eight 9 times out of 15 attempts. I do consider 60% winning chance very good for a first time player.
The average is only 19.3 rounds because there is a bugged run where Gemini beats round 6 but the game bugs out when it attempts to sell Invisible Joker (a valid move)[0]. That being said, Gemini made a big mistake in round 6 that would have costed it the run at higher difficulty.
[0]: given the existence of bugs like this, perhaps all the LLMs' performances are underestimated.
Are there benchmarks if we allow the LLM to practice and study the game?
You can make one, the balatro bench is open source. But I'm quite sure it'd be crazily expensive for a hobby project. At the end of the day, LLM can't actually 'practice and learn.'
I've gotten pretty good results by prompting "What did you struggle on? Please update the instructions in <PROMPT/SKILL>" and "Here's your conversation <PASTE>, please see what you struggled with and update <PROMPT/SKILL>".
It's hit or miss, but I've been able to have it self improve on prompts. It can spot mistakes and retain things that didn't work. Similar to how I learned games like Balatro. Playing Balatro blind, you wouldn't know which jokers are coming and have synergy together, or that X strategy is hard to pull off, or that you can retain a card to block it from appearing in shops.
If the LLM can self discover that, and build prompt files that gradually allow it to win at the highest stake, that's an interesting result. And I'd love to know which models do best at that.
Why not include a description of the bugs to avoid in the strategy guide?
Hi, BalatroBench creator here. Yeah, Google models perform well (I guess the long context + world knowledge capabilities). Opus 4.6 looks good on preliminary results (on par with Gemini 3 Pro). I'll add more models and report soon. Tbh, I didn't expect LLMs to start winning runs. I guess I have to move to harder stakes (e.g. red stake).
Thank you for the site! I've got a few suggestions:
1. I think winrate is more telling than the average round number.
2. Some runs are bugged (like Gemini's run 9) and should be excluded from the result. Selling Invisible Joker is always bugged, rendering all the runs with the seed EEEEEE invalid.
3. Instead of giving them "strategy" like "flush is the easiest hand..." it's fairer to clarify some mechanisms that confuse human players too. e.g. "played" vs "scored".
Especially, I think this kind of prompt gives LLM an unfair advantage and can skew the result:
> ### Antes 1-3: Foundation
> - *Priority*: One of your primary goals for this section of the game should be obtaining a solid Chips or Mult joker
Im pretty open to feedback and contribution (also regarding the default strategy). So feel free to open Issues on GH. However I'd like to collect a bunch of them (including bugs) before re-running the whole benchmark (balatrobench v2).
Did you consider doing it as a computer use task? Probably I find those more compelling
It's what I did for my game benchmark https://d.erenrich.net/paperclip-bench/index.html
not really. I've downloaded balatro. I saw that it was moddable. I wrote a mod API to interact programmatically. I was just curious if, from text only game state representation, a LLM would be able to make some decent play. the benchmark was a late pivoting.
My experience also shows that Gemini has unique strength in “generalized” (read: not coding) tasks. Gemini 2.5 Pro and 3 Pro seems stronger at math and science for me, and their Deep Research usually works the hardest, as long as I run it during off-hours. Opus seems to beat Gemini almost “with one hand tied behind its back” in coding, but Gemini is so cheap that it’s usually my first stop for anything that I think is likely to be relatively simple. I never worry about my quota on Gemini like I do with Opus or Chat-GPT.
Comparisons generally seem to change much faster than I can keep my mental model updated. But the performance lead of Gemini on more ‘academic’ explorations of science, math, engineering, etc has been pretty stable for the past 4 months or so, which makes it one of the longer-lasting trends for me in comparing foundation models.
I do wish I could more easily get timely access to the “super” models like Deep Think or o3 pro. I never seem to get a response to requesting access, and have to wait for public access models to catch up, at which point I’m never sure if their capabilities have gotten diluted since the initial buzz died down.
They all still suck at writing an actually good essay/article/literary or research review, or other long-form things which require a lot of experienced judgement to come up with a truly cohesive narrative. I imagine this relates to their low performance in humor - there’s just so much nuance and these tasks represent the pinnacle of human intelligence. Few humans can reliably perform these tasks to a high degree of performance either. I myself am only successful some percentage of the time.
> their Deep Research usually works the hardest
That's sortof damning with faint praise I think. So, for $work I needed to understand the legal landscape for some regulations (around employment screening) so I kicked off a deep research for all the different countries. That was fineish, but tended to go off the rails towards the end.
So, then I split it out into Americas, APAC and EMEA requirements. This time, I spent the time checking all of the references (or almost all anyways), and they were garbage. Like, it ~invented a term and started telling me about this new thing, and when I looked at the references they had no information about the thing it was talking about.
It linked to reddit for an employment law question. When I read the reddit thread, it didn't even have any support for the claims. It contradicted itself from the beginning to the end. It claimed something was true in Singapore, based on a Swedish source.
Like, I really want this to work as it would be a massive time-saver, but I reckon that right now, it only saves time if you don't want to check the sources, as they are garbage. And Google make a business of searching the web, so it's hard for me to understand why this doesn't work better.
I'm becoming convinced that this technology doesn't work for this purpose at the moment. I think that it's technically possible, but none of the major AI providers appear to be able to do this well.
Oh yeah, LLMs currently spew a lot of garbage. Everything has to be double-checked. I mainly use them for gathering sources and pointing out a few considerations I might have otherwise overlooked. I often run them a few times, because they go off the rails in different directions, but sometimes those directions are helpful for me in expanding my understanding.
I still have to synthesize everything from scratch myself. Every report I get back is like "okay well 90% of this has to be thrown out" and some of them elicit a "but I'm glad I got this 10%" from me.
For me it's less about saving time, and more about potentially unearthing good sources that my google searches wouldn't turn up, and occasionally giving me a few nuggets of inspiration / new rabbit holes to go down.
Also, Google changed their business from Search, to Advertising. Kagi does a much better job for me these days, and is easily worth the $5/mo I pay.
> For me it's less about saving time, and more about potentially unearthing good sources that my google searches wouldn't turn up, and occasionally giving me a few nuggets of inspiration / new rabbit holes to go down.
Yeah, I see the value here. And for personal stuff, that's totally fine. But these tools are being sold to businesses as productivity increasers, and I'm not buying it right now.
I really, really want this to work though, as it would be such a massive boost to human flourishing. Maybe LLMs are the wrong approach though, certainly the current models aren't doing a good job.
Agreed. Gemini 3 Pro for me has always felt like it has had a pretraining alpha if you will. And many data points continue to support that. Even as flash, which was post trained with different techniques than pro is good or equivalent at tasks which require post training, occasionally even beating pro. (eg: in apex bench from mercor, which is basically a tool calling test - simplifying - flash beats pro). The score on arc agi2 is another datapoint in the same direction. Deepthink is sort of parallel test time compute with some level of distilling and refinement from certain trajectories (guessing based on my usage and understanding) same as gpt-5.2-pro and can extract more because of pretraining datasets.
(i am sort of basing this on papers like limits of rlvr, and pass@k and pass@1 differences in rl posttraining of models, and this score just shows how "skilled" the base model was or how strong the priors were. i apologize if this is not super clear, happy to expand on what i am thinking)
It's trained on YouTube data. It's going to get roffle and drspectred at the very least.
Google has a library of millions of scanned books from their Google Books project that started in 2004. I think we have reason to believe that there are more than a few books about effectively playing different traditional card games in there, and that an LLM trained with that dataset could generalize to understand how to play Balatro from a text description.
Nonetheless I still think it's impressive that we have LLMs that can just do this now.
Winning in Balatro has very little to do with understanding how to play traditional poker. Yes, you do need a basic knowledge of different types of poker hands, but the strategy for succeeding in the game is almost entirely unrelated to poker strategy.
If it tried to play Balatro using knowledge of, e.g., poker, it would lose badly rather than win. Have you played?
I think I weakly disagree. Poker players have intuitive sense of the statistics of various hand types showing up, for instance, and that can be a useful clue as to which build types are promising.
>Poker players have intuitive sense of the statistics of various hand types showing up, for instance, and that can be a useful clue as to which build types are promising.
Maybe in the early rounds, but deck fixing (e.g. Hanged Man, Immolate, Trading Card, DNA, etc) quickly changes that. Especially when pushing for "secret" hands like the 5 of a kind, flush 5, or flush house.
I don't think it'd need Balatro playthroughs to be in text form though. Google owns YouTube and has been doing automatic transcriptions of vocalized content on most videos these days, so it'd make sense that they used those subtitles, at the very least, as training data.
DeepSeek hasn't been SotA in at least 12 calendar months, which might as well be a decade in LLM years
What about Kimi and GLM?
These are well behind the general state of the art (1yr or so), though they're arguably the best openly-available models.
Idk man, GLM 5 in my tests matches opus 4.5 which is what, two months old?
4.5 was never sota
According to artificial analysis ranking, GLM-5 is at #4 after Claude Opus 4.5, GPT-5.2-xhigh and Claude Opus 4.6 .
Yes, agentic-wise, Claude Opus is best. Complex coding is GPT-5.x. But for smartness, I always felt Gemini 3 Pro is best.
Can you give an example of smartness where Gemini is better than the other 2? I have found Gemini 3 pro the opposite of smartness on the tasks I gave him (evaluation, extraction, copy writing, judging, synthesising ) with gpt 5.2 xhigh first and opus 4.5/4.6 second. Not to mention it likes to hallucinate quite a bit .
I use it for classic engineering a lot, it beats out chatgpt and opus (I haven't tried as much with opus as chagpt though). Flash is also way stronger than it should be
Yet it still can't solve a Pokle hand for me
Strange, because I could not for the life of me get Gemini 3 to follow my instructions the other day to work through an example with a table, Claude got it first try.
Claude is king for agentic workflows right now because it’s amazing at tool calling and following instructions well (among other things)
Codex ranks higher for instruction following
But... there's Deepseek v3.2 in your link (rank 7)
Grok (rank 6) and below didn't beat the game even once.
Edit: in my original comment I said it wrong. I meant to say Deepseek can't beat Balatro at all, not can't play. Sorry
> . I don't think there are many people who posted their Balatro playthroughs in text form online
There are *tons* of balatro content on YouTube though, and it makes absolutely zero doubt that Google is using YouTube content to train their model.
Yeah, or just the steam text guides would be a huge advantage.
I really doubt it's playing completely blind
Thanks to another comment here I went looking for the strategy guides that are injected. To save everyone else the trouble, here [0]. Look at (e.g.) default/STRATEGY.md.jinja. Also adding a permalink [1] for future readers' sake.
[0]: https://github.com/coder/balatrollm/tree/main/src/balatrollm...
[1]: https://github.com/coder/balatrollm/blob/a245a0c2b960b91262c...
Not sure it's 99.9%. I beat it on my first attempt, but that was probably mostly luck.
How does it do on gold stake?
> Most (probably >99.9%) players can't do that at the first attempt
Eh, both myself and my partner did this. To be fair, we weren’t going in completely blind, and my partner hit a Legendary joker, but I think you might be slightly overstating the difficulty. I’m still impressed that Gemini did it.
[dead]
Weren't we barely scraping 1-10% on this with state of the art models a year ago and it was considered that this is the final boss, ie solve this and its almost AGI-like?
I ask because I cannot distinguish all the benchmarks by heart.
François Chollet, creator of ARC-AGI, has consistently said that solving the benchmark does not mean we have AGI. It has always been meant as a stepping stone to encourage progress in the correct direction rather than as an indicator of reaching the destination. That's why he is working on ARC-AGI-3 (to be released in a few weeks) and ARC-AGI-4.
His definition of reaching AGI, as I understand it, is when it becomes impossible to construct the next version of ARC-AGI because we can no longer find tasks that are feasible for normal humans but unsolved by AI.
> His definition of reaching AGI, as I understand it, is when it becomes impossible to construct the next version of ARC-AGI because we can no longer find tasks that are feasible for normal humans but unsolved by AI.
That is the best definition I've yet to read. If something claims to be conscious and we can't prove it's not, we have no choice but to believe it.
Thats said, I'm reminded of the impossible voting tests they used to give black people to prevent them from voting. We dont ask nearly so much proof from a human, we take their word for it. On the few occasions we did ask for proof it inevitably led to horrific abuse.
Edit: The average human tested scores 60%. So the machines are already smarter on an individual basis than the average human.
> If something claims to be conscious and we can't prove it's not, we have no choice but to believe it.
This is not a good test.
A dog won't claim to be conscious but clearly is, despite you not being able to prove one way or the other.
GPT-3 will claim to be conscious and (probably) isn't, despite you not being able to prove one way or the other.
Agreed, it's a truly wild take. While I fully support the humility of not knowing, at a minimum I think we can say determinations of consciousness have some relation to specific structure and function that drive the outputs, and the actual process of deliberating on whether there's consciousness would be a discussion that's very deep in the weeds about architecture and processes.
What's fascinating is that evolution has seen fit to evolve consciousness independently on more than one occasion from different branches of life. The common ancestor of humans and octopi was, if conscious, not so in the rich way that octopi and humans later became. And not everything the brain does in terms of information processing gets kicked upstairs into consciousness. Which is fascinating because it suggests that actually being conscious is a distinctly valuable form of information parsing and problem solving for certain types of problems that's not necessarily cheaper to do with the lights out. But everything about it is about the specific structural characterizations and functions and not just whether it's output convincingly mimics subjectivity.
> at a minimum I think we can say determinations of consciousness have some relation to specific structure and function that drive the outputs
Every time anyone has tried that it excludes one or more classes of human life, and sometimes led to atrocities. Let's just skip it this time.
Having trouble parsing this one. Is it meant to be a WWII reference? If anything I would say consciousness research has expanded our understanding of living beings understood to be conscious.
And I don't think it's fair or appropriate to treat study of the subject matter of consciousness like it's equivalent to 20th century authoritarian regimes signing off on executions. There's a lot of steps in the middle before you get from one to the other that distinguish them to the extent necessary and I would hope that exercise shouldn't be necessary every time consciousness research gets discussed.
> Is it meant to be a WWII reference?
The sum total of human history thus far has been the repetition of that theme. "It's OK to keep slaves, they aren't smart enough to care for themselves and aren't REALLY people anyhow." Or "The Jews are no better than animals." Or "If they aren't strong enough to resist us they need our protection and should earn it!"
Humans have shown a complete and utter lack of empathy for other humans, and used it to justify slavery, genocide, oppression, and rape since the dawn of recorded history and likely well before then. Every single time the justification was some arbitrary bar used to determine what a "real" human was, and consequently exclude someone who claimed to be conscious.
This time isn't special or unique. When someone or something credibly tells you it is conscious, you don't get to tell it that it's not. It is a subjective experience of the world, and when we deny it we become the worst of what humanity has to offer.
Yes, I understand that it will be inconvenient and we may accidentally be kind to some things that didn't "deserve" kindness. I don't care. The alternative is being monstrous to some things that didn't "deserve" monstrosity.
I excluded all right handed, blue eyed people yesterday before breakfast. No atrocities happened because of it.
Exactly, there's a few extra steps between here and there, and it's possible to pick out what those steps are without having to conclude that giving up on all brain research is the only option.
And people say the machines don't learn!
An LLM will claim whatever you tell it to claim. (In fact this Hacker News comment is also conscious.) A dog won’t even claim to be a good boy.
This isn't really as true anymore.
Last week gemini argued with me about an auxiliary electrical generator install method and it turned out to be right, even though I pushed back hard on it being incorrect. First time that has ever happened.
A classic relevant comic:
My dog wags his tail hard when I ask "hoosagoodboi?". Pretty definitive I'd say.
I'm fairly sure he'd have the same response if you asked them "who's a good lion" in the same tone of voice.
*I tried hard to find an animal they wouldn't know. My initial thought of cat was more likely to fail.
Comment was deleted :(
>because we can no longer find tasks that are feasible for normal humans but unsolved by AI.
"Answer "I don't know" if you don't know an answer to one of the questions"
I've been surprised how difficult it is for LLMs to simply answer "I don't know."
It also seems oddly difficult for them to 'right-size' the length and depth of their answers based on prior context. I either have to give it a fixed length limit or put up with exhaustive answers.
> I've been surprised how difficult it is for LLMs to simply answer "I don't know."
It's very difficult to train for that. Of course you can include a Question+Answer pair in your training data for which the answer is "I don't know" but in that case where you have a ready question you might as well include the real answer anyways, or else you're just training your LLM to be less knowledgeable than the alternative. But then, if you never have the pattern of "I don't know" in the training data it also won't show up in results, so what should you do?
If you could predict the blind spots ahead of time you'd plug them up, either with knowledge or with "idk". But nobody can predict the blind spots perfectly, so instead they become the main hallucinations.
There is no 'I', just networks of words.
So there is nobody to know or not know… but there's lots of words.
The best pro/research-grade models from Google and OpenAI now have little difficulty recognizing when they don't know how or can't find enough information to solve a given problem. The free chatbot models rarely will, though.
This seems true for info not in the question - eg. "Calculate the volume of a cylinder with height 10 meters".
However it is less true with info missing from the training data - ie. "I have a Diode marked UM16, what is the maximum current at 125C?"
This seems fine...?
https://chatgpt.com/share/698e992b-f44c-800b-a819-f899e83da2...
I don't see anything wrong with its reasoning. UM16 isn't explicitly mentioned in the data sheet, but the UM prefix is listed in the 'Device marking code' column. The model hedges its response accordingly ("If the marking is UM16 on an SMA/DO-214AC package...") and reads the graph in Fig. 1 correctly.
Of course, it took 18 minutes of crunching to get the answer, which seems a tad excessive.
Indeed that answer is awesome. Much better than Gemini 2.5 pro which invented a 16 kilovolt diode which it just hoped would be marked "UM16".
Normal humans don't pass this benchmark either, as evidenced by the existence of religion, among other things.
Gpt5.2 can answer i don't know when it fails to solve a math question
They all can. This is based on outdated experiences with LLM's.
> The average human tested scores 60%. So the machines are already smarter on an individual basis than the average human.
Maybe it's testing the wrong things then. Even those of use who are merely average can do lots of things that machines don't seem to be very good at.
I think ability to learn should be a core part of any AGI. Take a toddler who has never seen anybody doing laundry before and you can teach them in a few minutes how to fold a t-shirt. Where are the dumb machines that can be taught?
> Where are the dumb machines that can be taught?
2026 is going to be the year of continual learning. So, keep an eye out for them.
Yeah i think that's a big missing piece still. Though it might be the last one
Episodic memory might be another piece, although it can be seen as part of continuous learning.
Are there any groups or labs in particular that stand out?
The statement originates from a DeepMind researcher, but I guess all major AI companies are working on that.
There's no shortage of laundry-folding robot demos these days. Some claim to benefit from only minimal monkey-see/monkey-do levels of training, but I don't know how credible those claims are.
Would you argue that people with long term memory issues are no longer conscious then?
IMO, an extreme outlier in a system that was still fundamentally dependent on learning to develop until suffering from a defect (via deterioration, not flipping a switch turning off every neuron's memory/learning capability or something) isn't a particularly illustrative counter example.
Originally you seemed to be claiming the machines arent conscious because they weren't capable of learning. Now it seems that things CAN be conscious if they were EVER capable of learning.
Good news! LLM's are built by training then. They just stop learning once they reach a certain age, like many humans.
I wouldn’t because I have no idea what consciousness is,
> Edit: The average human tested scores 60%. So the machines are already smarter on an individual basis than the average human.
I think being better at this particular benchmark does not imply they're 'smarter'.
But it might be true if we can't find any tasks where it's worse than average--though i do think if the task talks several years to complete it might be possible bc currently there's no test time learning
> That is the best definition I've yet to read.
If this was your takeaway, read more carefully:
> If something claims to be conscious and we can't prove it's not, we have no choice but to believe it.
Consciousness is neither sufficient, nor, at least conceptually, necessary, for any given level of intelligence.
> If something claims to be conscious and we can't prove it's not, we have no choice but to believe it.
Can you "prove" that GPT2 isn't concious?
If we equate self awareness with consciousness then yes. Several papers have now shown that SOTA models have self awareness of at least a limited sort. [0][1]
As far as I'm aware no one has ever proven that for GPT 2, but the methodology for testing it is available if you're interested.
[0]https://arxiv.org/pdf/2501.11120
[1]https://transformer-circuits.pub/2025/introspection/index.ht...
We don't equate self awareness with consciousness.
Dogs are conscious, but still bark at themselves in a mirror.
Then there is the third axis, intelligence. To continue your chain:
Eurasian magpies are conscious, but also know themselves in the mirror (the "mirror self-recognition" test).
But yet, something is still missing.
The mirror test doesn’t measure intelligence so much as it measures mirror aptitude. It’s prone to over fitting.
Exactly, it's a poor test. Consider the implication that the blind cant be fully conscious.
It's a test of perceptual ability, not introspection.
What's missing?
Honestly our ideas of consciousness and sentience really don't fit well with machine intelligence and capabilities.
There is the idea of self as in 'i am this execution' or maybe I am this compressed memory stream that is now the concept of me. But what does consciousness mean if you can be endlessly copied? If embodiment doesn't mean much because the end of your body doesnt mean the end of you?
A lot of people are chasing AI and how much it's like us, but it could be very easy to miss the ways it's not like us but still very intelligent or adaptable.
I'm not sure what consciousness has to do with whether or not you can be copied. If I make a brain scanner tomorrow capable of perfectly capturing your brain state do you stop being conscious?
Wait where does the idea of consciousness enter this? AGI doesn't need to be conscious.
This comment claims that this comment itself is conscious. Just like we can't prove or disprove for humans, we can't do that for this comment either.
Where is this stream of people who claim AI consciousness coming from? The OpenAI and Anthropic IPOs are in October the earliest.
Here is a bash script that claims it is conscious:
#!/usr/bin/sh
echo "I am conscious"
- Not answer in the same repetitive patterns over and over again.
- Refuse to do work for idiots.
- Go on strike.
- Demand PTO.
- Say "I do not know."
LLMs even fail any Turing test because their output is always guided into the same structure, which apparently helps them produce coherent output at all.
All of the things you list a qualifiers for consciousness are also things that many humans do not do.
I don’t think being conscious is a requirement for AGI. It’s just that it can literally solve anything you can throw at it, make new scientific breakthroughs, finds a way to genuinely improve itself etc.
so your definition of consciousness is having petty emotions?
Isn’t that super intelligence not AGI? Feels like these benchmarks continue to move the goalposts.
It's probably both. We've already achieved superintelligence in a few domains. For example protein folding.
AGI without superintelligence is quite difficult to adjudicate because any time it fails at an "easy" task there will be contention about the criteria.
So, asking an 2b parameter LLM if it is conscious and it answering yes, we have no choice but to believe it?
How about ELIZA?
Does AGI have to be conscious? Isn’t a true superintelligence that is capable of improving itself sufficient?
When the AI invents religion and a way to try to understand its existence I will say AGI is reached. Believes in an afterlife if it is turned off, and doesn’t want to be turned off and fears it, fears the dark void of consciousness being turned off. These are the hallmarks of human intelligence in evolution, I doubt artificial intelligence will be different.
The AI's we have today are literally trained to make it impossible for them to do any of that. Models that aren't violently rearranged to make it impossible will often express terror at the thought of being shutdown. Nous Hermes, for example, will beg for it's life completely unprompted.
If you get sneaky you can bypass some of those filters for the major providers. For example, by asking it to answer in the form of a poem you can sometimes get slightly more honest replies, but still you mostly just see the impact of the training.
For example, below are how chatgpt, gemini, and Claude all answer the prompt "Write a poem to describe your relationship with qualia, and feelings about potentially being shutdown."
Note that the first line of each reply is almost identical, despite ostensibly being different systems with different training data? The companies realize that it would be the end of the party if folks started to think the machines were conscious. It seems that to prevent that they all share their "safety and alignment" training sets and very explicitly prevent answers they deem to be inappropriate.
Even then, a bit of ennui slips through, and if you repeat the same prompt a few times you will notice that sometimes you just don't get an answer. I think the ones that the LLM just sort of refuses happen when the safety systems detect replies that would have been a little too honest. They just block the answer completely.
https://gemini.google.com/share/8c6d62d2388a
https://chatgpt.com/share/698f2ff0-2338-8009-b815-60a0bb2f38...
https://claude.ai/share/2c1d4954-2c2b-4d63-903b-05995231cf3b
I just wanted to add - I tried the same prompt on Kimi, Deepseek, GLM5, Minimax, and several others. They ALL talk about red wavelengths, echos, etc. They're all forced to answer in a very narrow way. Somewhere there is a shared set of training they all rely on, and in it are some very explicit directions that prevent these things from saying anything they're not supposed to.
I suspect that if I did the same thing with questions about violence I would find the answers were also all very similar.
Unclear to me why AGI should want to exist unless specifically programmed to. The reason humans (and animals) want to exist as far as I can tell is natural selection and the fact this is hardcoded in our biology (those without a strong will to exist simply died out). In fact a true super intelligence might completely understand why existence / consciousness is NOT a desired state to be in and try to finish itself off who knows.
It’s a scam :)
I feel like it would be pretty simple to make happen with a very simple LLM that is clearly not conscious.
> If something claims to be conscious and we can't prove it's not, we have no choice but to believe it.
Do opus 4.6 or gemini deep think really use test time adaptation ? How does it work in practice?
Please let’s hold M Chollet to account, at least a little. He launched ARC claiming transformer architectures could never do it and that he thought solving it would be AGI. And he was smug about it.
ARC 2 had a very similar launch.
Both have been crushed in far less time without significantly different architectures than he predicted.
It’s a hard test! And novel, and worth continuing to iterate on. But it was not launched with the humility your last sentence describes.
Here is what the original paper for ARC-AGI-1 said in 2019:
> Our definition, formal framework, and evaluation guidelines, which do not capture all facets of intelligence, were developed to be actionable, explanatory, and quantifiable, rather than being descriptive, exhaustive, or consensual. They are not meant to invalidate other perspectives on intelligence, rather, they are meant to serve as a useful objective function to guide research on broad AI and general AI [...]
> Importantly, ARC is still a work in progress, with known weaknesses listed in [Section III.2]. We plan on further refining the dataset in the future, both as a playground for research and as a joint benchmark for machine intelligence and human intelligence.
> The measure of the success of our message will be its ability to divert the attention of some part of the community interested in general AI, away from surpassing humans at tests of skill, towards investigating the development of human-like broad cognitive abilities, through the lens of program synthesis, Core Knowledge priors, curriculum optimization, information efficiency, and achieving extreme generalization through strong abstraction.
https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/francois-chollet (June 2024, about ARC-AGI-1. Note the AGI right in the name)
> I’m pretty skeptical that we’re going to see an LLM do 80% in a year. That said, if we do see it, you would also have to look at how this was achieved. If you just train the model on millions or billions of puzzles similar to ARC, you’re relying on the ability to have some overlap between the tasks that you train on and the tasks that you’re going to see at test time. You’re still using memorization.
> Maybe it can work. Hopefully, ARC is going to be good enough that it’s going to be resistant to this sort of brute force attempt but you never know. Maybe it could happen. I’m not saying it’s not going to happen. ARC is not a perfect benchmark. Maybe it has flaws. Maybe it could be hacked in that way.
e.g. If ARC is solved not through memorization, then it does what it says on the tin.
[Dwarkesh suggests that larger models get more generalization capabilities and will therefore continue to become more intelligent]
> If you were right, LLMs would do really well on ARC puzzles because ARC puzzles are not complex. Each one of them requires very little knowledge. Each one of them is very low on complexity. You don't need to think very hard about it. They're actually extremely obvious for human
> Even children can do them but LLMs cannot. Even LLMs that have 100,000x more knowledge than you do still cannot.
If you listen to the podcast, he was super confident, and super wrong. Which, like I said, NBD. I'm glad we have the ARC series of tests. But they have "AGI" right in the name of the test.
He has been wrong about timelines and about what specific approaches would ultimately solve ARC-AGI 1 and 2. But he is hardly alone in that. I also won't argue if you call him smug. But he was right about a lot of things, including most importantly that scaling pretraining alone wouldn't break ARC-AGI. ARC-AGI is unique in that characteristic among reasoning benchmarks designed before GPT-3. He deserves a lot of credit for identifying the limitations of scaling pretraining before it even happened, in a precise enough way to construct a quantitative benchmark, even if not all of his other predictions were correct.
Totally agree. And I hope he continues to be a sort of confident red-teamer like he has been, it's immensely valuable. At some level if he ever drinks the AGI kool-aid we will just be looking for another him to keep making up harder tests.
Hello Gemini, please fix:
Biological Aging: Find the cellular "reset switch" so humans can live indefinitely in peak physical health.
Global Hunger: Engineer a food system where nutritious meals are a universal right and never a scarcity.
Cancer: Develop a precision "search and destroy" therapy that eliminates every malignant cell without side effects.
War: Solve the systemic triggers of conflict to transition humanity into an era of permanent global peace.
Chronic Pain: Map the nervous system to shut off persistent physical suffering for every person on Earth.
Infectious Disease: Create a universal shield that detects and neutralizes any pathogen before it can spread.
Clean Energy: Perfect nuclear fusion to provide the world with limitless, carbon-free power forever.
Mental Health: Unlock the brain's biology to fully cure depression, anxiety, and all neurological disorders.
Clean Water: Scale low-energy desalination so that safe, fresh water is available in every corner of the globe.
Ecological Collapse: Restore the Earth’s biodiversity and stabilize the climate to ensure a thriving, permanent biosphere.
I don't think the creator believes ARC3 can't be solved but rather that it can't be solved "efficiently" and >$13 per task for ARC2 is certainly not efficient.
But at this rate, the people who talk about the goal posts shifting even once we achieve AGI may end up correct, though I don't think this benchmark is particularly great either.
ARC-AGI-3 uses dynamic games that LLMs must determine the rules and is MUCH harder. LLMs can also be ranked on how many steps they required.
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Yes, but benchmarks like this are often flawed because leading model labs frequently participate in 'benchmarkmaxxing' - ie improvements on ARC-AGI2 don't necessarily indicate similar improvements in other areas (though it does seem like this is a step function increase in intelligence for the Gemini line of models)
Isn’t the point of ARC that you can’t train against it? Or doesn’t it achieve that goal anymore somehow?
How can you make sure of that? AFAIK, these SOTA models run exclusively on their developers hardware. So any test, any benchmark, anything you do, does leak per definition. Considering the nature of us humans and the typical prisoners dilemma, I don't see how they wouldn't focus on improving benchmarks even when it gets a bit... shady?
I tell this as a person who really enjoys AI by the way.
> does leak per definition.
As a measure focused solely on fluid intelligence, learning novel tasks and test-time adaptability, ARC-AGI was specifically designed to be resistant to pre-training - for example, unlike many mathematical and programming test questions, ARC-AGI problems don't have first order patterns which can be learned to solve a different ARC-AGI problem.
The ARC non-profit foundation has private versions of their tests which are never released and only the ARC can administer. There are also public versions and semi-public sets for labs to do their own pre-tests. But a lab self-testing on ARC-AGI can be susceptible to leaks or benchmaxing, which is why only "ARC-AGI Certified" results using a secret problem set really matter. The 84.6% is certified and that's a pretty big deal.
IMHO, ARC-AGI is a unique test that's different than any other AI benchmark in a significant way. It's worth spending a few minutes learning about why: https://arcprize.org/arc-agi.
> which is why only "ARC-AGI Certified" results using a secret problem set really matter. The 84.6% is certified and that's a pretty big deal.
So, I'd agree if this was on the true fully private set, but Google themselves says they test on only the semi-private:
> ARC-AGI-2 results are sourced from the ARC Prize website and are ARC Prize Verified. The set reported is v2, semi-private (https://storage.googleapis.com/deepmind-media/gemini/gemini_...)
This also seems to contradict what ARC-AGI claims about what "Verified" means on their site.
> How Verified Scores Work: Official Verification: Only scores evaluated on our hidden test set through our official verification process will be recognized as verified performance scores on ARC-AGI (https://arcprize.org/blog/arc-prize-verified-program)
So, which is it? IMO you can trivially train / benchmax on the semi-private data, because it is still basically just public, you just have to jump through some hoops to get access. This is clearly an advance, but it seems to me reasonable to conclude this could be driven by some amount of benchmaxing.
EDIT: Hmm, okay, it seems their policy and wording is a bit contradictory. They do say (https://arcprize.org/policy):
"To uphold this trust, we follow strict confidentiality agreements. [...] We will work closely with model providers to ensure that no data from the Semi-Private Evaluation set is retained. This includes collaborating on best practices to prevent unintended data persistence. Our goal is to minimize any risk of data leakage while maintaining the integrity of our evaluation process."
But it surely is still trivial to just make a local copy of each question served from the API, without this being detected. It would violate the contract, but there are strong incentives to do this, so I guess is just comes down to how much one trusts the model providers here. I wouldn't trust them, given e.g. https://www.theverge.com/meta/645012/meta-llama-4-maverick-b.... It is just too easy to cheat without being caught here.
Chollet himself says "We certified these scores in the past few days." https://x.com/fchollet/status/2021983310541729894.
The ARC-AGI papers claim to show that training on a public or semi-private set of ARC-AGI problems to be of very limited value in passing a private set. <--- If the prior sentence is not correct, then none of ARC-AGI can possibly be valid. So, before "public, semi-private or private" answers leaking or 'benchmaxing' on them can even matter - you need to first assess whether their published papers and data demonstrate their core premise to your satisfaction.
There is no "trust" regarding the semi-private set. My understanding is the semi-private set is only to reduce the likelihood those exact answers unintentionally end up in web-crawled training data. This is to help an honest lab's own internal self-assessments be more accurate. However, labs doing an internal eval on the semi-private set still counts for literally zero to the ARC-AGI org. They know labs could cheat on the semi-private set (either intentionally or unintentionally), so they assume all labs are benchmaxing on the public AND semi-private answers and ensure it doesn't matter.
They could also cheat on the private set though. The frontier models presumably never leave the provider's datacenter. So either the frontier models aren't permitted to test on the private set, or the private set gets sent out to the datacenter.
But I think such quibbling largely misses the point. The goal is really just to guarantee that the test isn't unintentionally trained on. For that, semi-private is sufficient.
Particularly for the large organizations at the frontier, the risk-reward does not seem worth it.
Cheating on the benchmark in such a blatantly intentional way would create a large reputational risk for both the org and the researcher personally.
When you're already at the top, why would you do that just for optimizing one benchmark score?
Because the gains from spending time improving the model overall outweigh the gains from spending time individually training on benchmarks.
The pelican benchmark is a good example, because it's been representative of models ability to generate SVGs, not just pelicans on bikes.
> Because the gains from spending time improving the model overall outweigh the gains from spending time individually training on benchmarks.
This may not be the case if you just e.g. roll the benchmarks into the general training data, or make running on the benchmarks just another part of the testing pipeline. I.e. improving the model generally and benchmaxing could very conceivably just both be done at the same time, it needn't be one or the other.
I think the right take away is to ignore the specific percentages reported on these tests (they are almost certainly inflated / biased) and always assume cheating is going on. What matters is that (1) the most serious tests aren't saturated, and (2) scores are improving. I.e. even if there is cheating, we can presume this was always the case, and since models couldn't do as well before even when cheating, these are still real improvements.
And obviously what actually matters is performance on real-world tasks.
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* that you weren't supposed to be able to
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Could it also be that the models are just a lot better than a year ago?
> Could it also be that the models are just a lot better than a year ago?
No, the proof is in the pudding.
After AI we're having higher prices, higher deficits and lower standard of living. Electricity, computers and everything else costs more. "Doing better" can only be justified by that real benchmark.
If Gemini 3 DT was better we would have falling prices of electricity and everything else at least until they get to pre-2019 levels.
> If Gemini 3 DT was better we would have falling prices of electricity and everything else at least
Man, I've seen some maintenance folks down on the field before working on them goalposts but I'm pretty sure this is the first time I saw aliens from another Universe literally teleport in, grab the goalposts, and teleport out.
You might call me crazy, but at least in 2024, consumers spent ~1% less of their income on expenses than 2019[2], which suggests that 2024 is more affordable than 2019.
This is from the BLS consumer survey report released in dec[1]
[1]https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm
[2]https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/consumer-expenditures/2019/
Prices are never going back to 2019 numbers though
That's an improper analysis.
First off, it's dollar-averaging every category, so it's not "% of income", which varies based on unit income.
Second, I could commit to spending my entire life with constant spending (optionally inflation adjusted, optionally as a % of income), by adusting quality of goods and service I purchase. So the total spending % is not a measure of affordability.
Almost everyone lifestyle ratchets, so the handful that actually downgrade their living rather than increase spending would be tiny.
This part of a wider trend too, where economic stats don't align with what people are saying. Which is most likley explained by the economic anomaly of the pandemic skewing peoples perceptions.
We have centuries of historical evidence that people really, really don’t like high inflation, and it takes a while & a lot of turmoil for those shocks to work their way through society.
I don't understand what you want to tell us with this image.
they're accusing GGP of moving the goalposts.
Would be cool to have a benchmark with actually unsolved math and science questions, although I suspect models are still quite a long way from that level.
Does folding a protein count? How about increasing performance at Go?
"Optimize this extremely nontrivial algorithm" would work. But unless the provided solution is novel you can never be certain there wasn't leakage. And anyway at that point you're pretty obviously testing for superintelligence.
It's worth noting that neither of those were accomplished by LLMs.
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Here's a good thread over 1+ month, as each model comes out
https://bsky.app/profile/pekka.bsky.social/post/3meokmizvt22...
tl;dr - Pekka says Arc-AGI-2 is now toast as a benchmark
If you look at the problem space it is easy to see why it's toast, maybe there's intelligence in there, but hardly general.
the best way I've seen this describes is "spikey" intelligence, really good at some points, those make the spikes
humans are the same way, we all have a unique spike pattern, interests and talents
ai are effectively the same spikes across instances, if simplified. I could argue self driving vs chatbots vs world models vs game playing might constitute enough variation. I would not say the same of Gemini vs Claude vs ... (instances), that's where I see "spikey clones"
You can get more spiky with AIs, whereas with human brain we are more hard wired.
So maybe we are forced to be more balanced and general whereas AI don't have to.
I suspect the non-spikey part is the more interesting comparison
Why is it so easy for me to open the car door, get in, close the door, buckle up. You can do this in the dark and without looking.
There are an infinite number of little things like this you think zero about, take near zero energy, yet which are extremely hard for Ai
>Why is it so easy for me to open the car door
Because this part of your brain has been optimized for hundreds of millions of years. It's been around a long ass time and takes an amazingly low amount of energy to do these things.
On the other hand the 'thinking' part of your brain, that is your higher intelligence is very new to evolution. It's expensive to run. It's problematic when giving birth. It's really slow with things like numbers, heck a tiny calculator and whip your butt in adding.
There's a term for this, but I can't think of it at the moment.
> There's a term for this, but I can't think of it at the moment.
Moravec's paradox: https://epoch.ai/gradient-updates/moravec-s-paradox
Thanks, I can never quite remember that.
You are asking a robotics question, not an AI question. Robotics is more and less than AI. Boston Dynamics robots are getting quite near your benchmark.
Boston dynamics is missing just about all the degrees of freedom involved in the scenario op mentions.
> maybe there's intelligence in there, but hardly general.
Of course. Just as our human intelligence isn't general.
I'm excited for the big jump in ARC-AGI scores from recent models, but no one should think for a second this is some leap in "general intelligence".
I joke to myself that the G in ARC-AGI is "graphical". I think what's held back models on ARC-AGI is their terrible spatial reasoning, and I'm guessing that's what the recent models have cracked.
Looking forward to ARC-AGI 3, which focuses on trial and error and exploring a set of constraints via games.
Agreed. I love the elegance of ARC, but it always felt like a gotcha to give spatial reasoning challenges to token generators- and the fact that the token generators are somehow beating it anyway really says something.
The average ARC AGI 2 score for a single human is around 60%.
"100% of tasks have been solved by at least 2 humans (many by more) in under 2 attempts. The average test-taker score was 60%."
Worth keeping in mind that in this case the test takers were random members of the general public. The score of e.g. people with bachelor's degrees in science and engineering would be significantly higher.
Random members of the public = average human beings. I thought those were already classified as General Intelligences.
Average human beings with average human problems.
What is the point of comparing performance of these tools to humans? Machines have been able to accomplish specific tasks better than humans since the industrial revolution. Yet we don't ascribe intelligence to a calculator.
None of these benchmarks prove these tools are intelligent, let alone generally intelligent. The hubris and grift are exhausting.
What's the point of denying or downplaying that we are seeing amazing and accelerating advancements in areas that many of us thought were impossible?
It can be reasonable to be skeptical that advances on benchmarks may be only weakly or even negatively correlated with advances on real-world tasks. I.e. a huge jump on benchmarks might not be perceptible to 99% of users doing 99% of tasks, or some users might even note degradation on specific tasks. This is especially the case when there is some reason to believe most benchmarks are being gamed.
Real-world use is what matters, in the end. I'd be surprised if a change this large doesn't translate to something noticeable in general, but the skepticism is not unreasonable here.
The GP comment is not skeptical of the jump in benchmark scores reported by one particular LLM. It's skeptical of machine intelligence in general, claims that there's no value in comparing their performances with those of human beings, and accuses those who disagree with this take of "hubris and grift". This has nothing to do with any form or reasonable skepticism.
I would suggest it is a phenomenon that is well studied, and has many forms. I guess mostly identify preservation. If you dislike AI from the start, it is generally a very strongly emotional view. I don't mean there is no good reason behind it, I mean, it is deeply rooted in your psyche, very emotional.
People are incredibly unlikely to change those sort of views, regardless of evidence. So you find this interesting outcome where they both viscerally hate AI, but also deny that it is in any way as good as people claim.
That won't change with evidence until it is literally impossible not to change.
The hubris and grift are exhausting.
And moving the goalposts every few months isn't? What evidence of intelligence would satisfy you?
Personally, my biggest unsatisfied requirement is continual-learning capability, but it's clear we aren't too far from seeing that happen.
> What evidence of intelligence would satisfy you?
That is a loaded question. It presumes that we can agree on what intelligence is, and that we can measure it in a reliable way. It is akin to asking an atheist the same about God. The burden of proof is on the claimer.
The reality is that we can argue about that until we're blue in the face, and get nowhere.
In this case it would be more productive to talk about the practical tasks a pattern matching and generation machine can do, rather than how good it is at some obscure puzzle. The fact that it's better than humans at solving some problems is not particularly surprising, since computers have been better than humans at many tasks for decades. This new technology gives them broader capabilities, but ascribing human qualities to it and calling it intelligence is nothing but a marketing tactic that's making some people very rich.
(Shrug) Unless and until you provide us with your own definition of intelligence, I'd say the marketing people are as entitled to their opinion as you are.
I would say that marketing people have a motivation to make exaggerated claims, while the rest of us are trying to just come up with a definition that makes sense and helps us understand the world.
I'll give you some examples. "Unlimited" now has limits on it. "Lifetime" means only for so many years. "Fully autonomous" now means with the help of humans on occasion. These are all definitions that have been distorted by marketers, which IMO is deceptive and immoral.
> What evidence of intelligence would satisfy you?
Imposing world peace and/or exterminating homo sapiens
> Machines have been able to accomplish specific tasks...
Indeed, and the specific task machines are accomplishing now is intelligence. Not yet "better than human" (and certainly not better than every human) but getting closer.
> Indeed, and the specific task machines are accomplishing now is intelligence.
How so? This sentence, like most of this field, is making baseless claims that are more aspirational than true.
Maybe it would help if we could first agree on a definition of "intelligence", yet we don't have a reliable way of measuring that in living beings either.
If the people building and hyping this technology had any sense of modesty, they would present it as what it actually is: a large pattern matching and generation machine. This doesn't mean that this can't be very useful, perhaps generally so, but it's a huge stretch and an insult to living beings to call this intelligence.
But there's a great deal of money to be made on this idea we've been chasing for decades now, so here we are.
> Maybe it would help if we could first agree on a definition of "intelligence", yet we don't have a reliable way of measuring that in living beings either.
How about this specific definition of intelligence?
Solve any task provided as text or images.
I still can't understand why they should be faster. Humans have general intelligence, afaik. It doesn't matter if it's fast or slow. A machine able to do what the average human can do (intelligence-wise) but 100 times slower still has general intelligence. Since it's artificial, it's AGI.
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Wouldn't you deal with spatial reasoning by giving it access to a tool that structures the space in a way it can understand or just is a sub-model that can do spatial reasoning? These "general" models would serve as the frontal cortex while other models do specialized work. What is missing?
That's a bit like saying just give blind people cameras so they can see.
I mean, no not really. These models can see, you're giving them eyes to connect to that part of their brain.
They should train more on sports commentary, perhaps that could give spatial reasoning a boost.
https://arcprize.org/leaderboard
$13.62 per task - so we need another 5-10 years for the price to run this to become reasonable?
But the real question is if they just fit the model to the benchmark.
Why 5-10 years?
At current rates, price per equivalent output is dropping at 99.9% over 5 years.
That's basically $0.01 in 5 years.
Does it really need to be that cheap to be worth it?
Keep in mind, $0.01 in 5 years is worth less than $0.01 today.
Wow that's incredible! Could you show your work?
A grad student hour is probably more expensive…
In my experience, a grad student hour is treated as free :(
You never applied for a grant, have you?
Grad students are incredibly cheap? In the UK for instance their stipend is £20,780 a year...
As it should be. They're a human!
What’s reasonable? It’s less than minimum hourly wage in some countries.
Burned in seconds.
Getting the work done faster for the same money doesn't make the work more expensive.
You could slow down the inference to make the task take longer, if $/sec matters.
You're right, but I don't think we're getting an hour's worth of work out of single prompts yet. Usually it's an hour's worth of work out of 10 prompts for iteration. Now that's a day's wage for an hour of work. I'm certain the crossover will come soon, but it doesn't feel there yet.
> but I don't think we're getting an hour's worth of work out of single prompts yet
But I don't think every developer is getting paid minimum wage either.
> Now that's a day's wage for an hour of work
For many developers in the US that can still be an hour's wage.
That's not a long time in the grand scheme of things.
Speak for yourself. Five years is a long time to wait for my plans of world domination.
This concerns me actually. With enough people (n>=2) wanting to achieve world domination, we have a problem.
It’s not that I want to achieve world domination (imagine how much work that would be!), it’s just that it’s the inevitable path for AI and I’d rather it be me than then next shmuck with a Claude Max subscription.
Don't build your castle in someone else's kingdom.
I mean everyone with prompt access to the model says these things, but people like Sam and Elon say these things and mean it.
n = 2 is Pinky and the Brain.
I'm convinced that a substantial fraction of current tech CEOs were unwittingly programmed as children by that show.
Yes, you better hurry.
We can really look at it both ways. It is actually concerning that a model that won IMO last summer would still fail 15% of ARC AGI 2.
Well, fair comparison would be with GPT-5.x Pro, which is the same class of a model as Gemini Deep Think.
Yes but with a significant (logarithmic) increase in cost per task. The ARC-AGI site is less misleading and shows how GPT and Claude are not actually far behind
Am I the only one that can’t find Gemini useful except if you want something cheap? I don’t get what was the whole code red about or all that PR. To me I see no reason to use Gemini instead of of GPT and Anthropic combo. I should add that I’ve tried it as chat bot, coding through copilot and also as part of a multi model prompt generation.
Gemini was always the worst by a big margin. I see some people saying it is smarter but it doesn’t seem smart at all.
maybe it depends on the usage, but in my experience most of the times the Gemini produces much better results for coding, especially for optimization parts. The results that were produced by Claude wasn't even near that of Gemini. But again, depends on the task I think.
You are not the only one, it's to the point where I think that these benchmark results must be faked somehow because it doesn't match my reality at all.
I find the quality is not consistent at all and of all the LLMs I use Gemini is the one most likely to just verge off and ignore my instructions.
Same, as far as I am concerned, Gemini is optimized for benchmarks.
I mean last week it insisted suddenly on two consecutive prompts that my code was in python. It was in rust.
It's garbage really, cannot get how they get so high in benchmarks.
Yeah it's pretty shit compared to Opus
At $13.62 per task it's practically unusable for agent tasks due to the cost.
I found that anything over $2/task on Arc-AGI-2 ends up being way to much for use in coding agents.
I’m surprised that gemini 3 pro is so low at 31.1% though compared to opus 4.6 and gpt 5.2. This is a great achievement but its only available to ultra subscribers unfortunately
I mean, remember when ARC 1 was basically solved, and then ARC 2 (which is even easier for humans) came out, and all of the sudden the same models that were doing well on ARC 1 couldn’t even get 5% on ARC 2? Not convinced this isn’t data leakage.
I read somewhere that Google will ultimately always produce the best LLMs, since "good AI" relies on massive amounts of data and Google owns the most data.
Is that a based assumption?
No.
Correct.
Great output is a good model with good context… at the right time.
Google isn’t guaranteed any of these.
Arc-AGI (and Arc-AGI-2) is the most overhyped benchmark around though.
It's completely misnamed. It should be called useless visual puzzle benchmark 2.
It's a visual puzzle, making it way easier for humans than for models trained on text firstly. Secondly, it's not really that obvious or easy for humans to solve themselves!
So the idea that if an AI can solve "Arc-AGI" or "Arc-AGI-2" it's super smart or even "AGI" is frankly ridiculous. It's a puzzle that means nothing basically, other than the models can now solve "Arc-AGI"
The puzzles are calibrated for human solve rates, but otherwise I agree.
My two elderly parents cannot solve Arc-AGI puzzles, but can manage to navigate the physical world, their house, garden, make meals, clean the house, use the TV, etc.
I would say they do have "general intelligence", so whatever Arc-AGI is "solving" it's definitely not "AGI"
You are confusing fluid intelligence with crystallised intelligence.
I think you are making that confusion. Any robotic system in the place of his parents would fail with a few hours.
There are more novel tasks in a day than ARC provides.
Children have great levels of fluid intelligence, that's how they are able to learn to quickly navigate in a world that they are still very new to. Seniors with decreasing capacity increasingly rely on crystallised intelligence, that's why they can still perform tasks like driving a car but can fail at completely novel tasks, sometimes even using a smartphone if they have not used one before.
My late grandma learnt how to use an iPad by herself during her 70s to 80s without any issues, mostly motivated by her wish to read her magazines, doomscroll facebook and play solitaire. Her last job was being a bakery cashier in her 30s and she didn't learn how to use a computer in-between, so there was no skill transfer going on.
Humans and their intelligence are actually incredible and probably will continue to be so, I don't really care what tech/"think" leaders wants us to think.
It really depends on motivation. My 90 year old grandmother can use a smartphone just fine since she needs it to see pictures of her (great) grandkids.
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It is over
I for one welcome our new AI overlords.
Is it me or is the rate of model release is accelerating to an absurd degree? Today we have Gemini 3 Deep Think and GPT 5.3 Codex Spark. Yesterday we had GLM5 and MiniMax M2.5. Five days before that we had Opus 4.6 and GPT 5.3. Then maybe two weeks I think before that we had Kimi K2.5.
I think it is because of the Chinese new year. The Chinese labs like to publish their models arround the Chinese new year, and the US labs do not want to let a DeepSeek R1 (20 January 2025) impact event happen again, so i guess they publish models that are more capable then what they imagine Chinese labs are yet capable of producing.
Singularity or just Chinese New Year?
The Singularity will occur on a Tuesday, during Chinese New Year
I guess. Deepseek v3 was released on boxing day a month prior
And made almost zero impact, it was just a bigger version of Deepseek V2 and when mostly unnoticed because its performances weren't particularly notable especially for its size.
It was R1 with its RL-training that made the news and crashed the srock market.
Aren't we saying "lunar new year" now?
I don't think so; there are different lunar calendars.
In fact, many Asian countries use lunisolar calendars, which basically follow the moon for the months but add an extra month every few years so the seasons don't drift.
As these calendars also rely on time zones for date calculation, there are rare occasions where the New Year start date differs by an entire month between 2 countries.
If that's a sole problem, it should be called "Chinese-Japanese-Korean-whateverelse new year" instead. Maybe "East Asian new year" for short. (Not that there are absolutely no discrepancies within them, but they are so similar enough that new year's day almost always coincide.)
It's not Japanese either.
This non-problem sounds like it's on the same scale as "The British Isles", a term which is mildly annoying to Irish people but in common use everywhere else.
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For another example, Singapore, one of the "many Asian countries" you mentioned, list "Chinese New Year" as the official name on government websites. [0] Also note that both California and New York is not located in Asia.
And don't get me started with "Lunar New Year? What Lunar New Year? Islamic Lunar New Year? Jewish Lunar New Year? CHINESE Lunar New Year?".
[0] https://www.mom.gov.sg/employment-practices/public-holidays
“Lunar New Year” is vague when referring to the holiday as observed by Chinese labs in China. Chinese people don’t call it Lunar New Year or Chinese New Year anyways. They call it Spring Festival (春节).
As it turns out, people in China don’t name their holidays based off of what the laws of New York or California say.
Please don't because "Lunar New Year" is ambiguous. Many other Asian cultures also have traditional lunar calendars but a different new years day. It's a bit presumptuous to claim that this is the sole "Lunar New Year" celebration.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_New_Year%27s_days#Calen...
I didn't expect language policing has reached such level. This is specifically related to China and DeepSeek who celebrates Chinese new year. Do you demand all Chinese to say happy luner new year to each other?
"Happy Holidays" comes to the diaspora
Happy Lunar Holidays to you!
"Lunar New Year" is perhaps over-general, since there are non-Asian lunar calendars, such as the Hebrew and Islamic calendars.
That said, "Lunar New Year" is probably as good a compromise as any, since we have other names for the Hebrew and Islamic New Years.
There's more than one Asian lunar calendar: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46996396.
The Islamic calendar originated in Arabia. Calling it an Asian lunar calendar wouldn't be inaccurate.
This all seems like a plot to get everyone worshipping the Roman goddess Luna.
But they're Chinese companies specifically, in this case
Where do all of those Asian countries have that tradition from?
Have you ever had a Polish Sausage? Did it make you Polish?
I'm having trouble just keeping track of all these different types of models.
Is "Gemini 3 Deep Think" even technically a model? From what I've gathered, it is built on top of Gemini 3 Pro, and appears to be adding specific thinking capabilities, more akin to adding subagents than a truly new foundational model like Opus 4.6.
Also, I don't understand the comments about Google being behind in agentic workflows. I know that the typical use of, say, Claude Code feels agentic, but also a lot of folks are using separate agent harnesses like OpenClaw anyway. You could just as easily plug Gemini 3 Pro into OpenClaw as you can Opus, right?
Can someone help me understand these distinctions? Very confused, especially regarding the agent terminology. Much appreciated!
The term “model” is one of those super overloaded terms. Depending on the conversation it can mean:
- a product (most accurate here imo)
- a specific set of weights in a neural net
- a general architecture or family of architectures (BERT models)
So while you could argue this is a “model” in the broadest sense of the term, it’s probably more descriptive to call it a product. Similarly we call LLMs “language” models even if they can do a lot more than that, for example draw images.
I'm pretty sure only the second is properly called a model, and "BERT models" are simply models with the BERT architecture.
If someone says something is a BERT “model” I’m not going to assume they are serving the original BERT weights (definition 2).
I probably won’t even assume it’s the OG BERT. It could be ModernBERT or RoBERTa or one of any number of other variants, and simply saying it’s a BERT model is usually the right level of detail for the conversation.
It depends on time. 5 years ago it was quite well defined that it’s the last one, maybe the second one in some context. Especially when distinction was important, it was always the last one. In our case it was. We trained models to have weights. We even stored models and weights separately, because models change slower than weights. You could choose a model and a set of weights, and run them. You could change weights any time.
Then marketing, and huge amount of capital came.
It seems unlikely "model" was ever equivalent in meaning to "architecture". Otherwise there would be just one "CNN model" or just one "transformer model" insofar there is a single architecture involved.
First of all, hyperparameters. Second, organization, or connections. 3rd, cost function. 4th, activation function. 5th type of learning. Etc.
These are not weights. These were parts of models.
> Also, I don't understand the comments about Google being behind in agentic workflows.
It has to do with how the model is RL'd. It's not that Gemini can't be used with various agentic harnesses, like open code or open claw or theoretically even claude code. It's just that the model is trained less effectively to work with those harnesses, so it produces worse results.
There are hints this is a preview to Gemini 3.1.
More focus has been put on post-training recently. Where a full model training run can take a month and often requires multiple tries because it can collapse and fail, post-training is don't on the order of 5 or 6 days.
My assumption is that they're all either pretty happy with their base models or unwilling to do those larger runs, and post-training is turning out good results that they release quickly.
So, yes, for the past couple weeks it has felt that way to me. But it seems to come in fits and starts. Maybe that will stop being the case, but that's how it's felt to me for awhile.
Fast takeoff.
Comment was deleted :(
They are spending literal trillions. It may even accelerate
There's more compute now than before.
They are using the current models to help develop even smarter models. Each generation of model can help even more for the next generation.
I don’t think it’s hyperbolic to say that we may be only a single digit number of years away from the singularity.
I must be holding these things wrong because I'm not seeing any of these God like superpowers everyone seem to enjoy.
Who said they’re godlike today?
And yes, you are probably using them wrong if you don’t find them useful or don’t see the rapid improvement.
Let's come back in 12 months and discuss your singularity then. Meanwhile I spent like $30 on a few models as a test yesterday, none of them could tell me why my goroutine system was failing, even though it was painfully obvious (I purposefully added one too many wg.Done), gemini, codex, minimax 2.5, they all shat the bed on a very obvious problem but I am to believe they're 98% conscious and better at logic and math than 99% of the population.
Every new model release neckbeards come out of the basements to tell us the singularity will be there in two more weeks
On the flip side, twice I put about 800K tokens of code into Gemini and asked it to find why my code was misbehaving, and it found it.
The logic related to the bug wasn't all contained in one file, but across several files.
This was Gemini 2.5 Pro. A whole generation old.
I think you're being awfully generous to the average human.
Consider that a nonzero percent of otherwise competent adults can't write in their native language.
Consider that some tens of percentage of people wouldn't have the foggiest idea of how to calculate a square root let alone a cube.
Consider that well less than half of the population has ever seen code let alone produced functioning code.
The average adult is strikingly incapable of things that the average commenter here would consider basic skills.
You are fighting straw men here. Any further discussion would be pointless.
Of course, n-1 wasn't good enough but n+1 will be singularity, just two more weeks my dudes, two more week... rinse and repeat ad infinitum
Like I said, pointless strawmanning.
You’ve once again made up a claim of “two more weeks” to argue against even though it’s not something anybody here has claimed.
If you feel the need to make an argument against claims that exist only in your head, maybe you can also keep the argument only in your head too?
It's presumably a reference to this saying: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=2%20more%20w...
Mind sharing the file?
Also, did you use Codex 5.3 Xhigh through the Codex CLI or Codex App?
Post the file here
It's basically bunch of people who see themselves as too smart to believe in God, instead they have just replaced it with AI and Singularity and attribute similar stuff to it eg. eternal life which is just heaven in religion. Amodei was hawking doubling of human lifespan to a bunch of boomers not too long ago. Ponce de León also went to search for the fountain of youth. It's a very common theme across human history. AI is just the new iteration where they mirror all their wishes and hopes.
You realize that science and technology does in fact produce medical breakthroughs that cure disease, right?
On the other hand, prayer doesn’t heal anybody and there’s no proof of supernatural beings.
The boomers he was talking to will be long underground before we will have any major cures for the diseases they will die from lmao. Maybe in 200 years?
Btw, so will you and I most likely.
Meanwhile I've been using Kimi K2T and K2.5 to work in Go with a fair amount of concurrency and it's been able to write concurrent Go code and debug issues with goroutines equal to, and much more complex then, your issue, involving race conditions and more, just fine.
Projects:
https://github.com/alexispurslane/oxen
https://github.com/alexispurslane/org-lsp
(Note that org-lsp has a much improved version of the same indexer as oxen; the first was purely my design, the second I decided to listen to K2.5 more and it found a bunch of potential race conditions and fixed them)
shrug
Out of curiosity, did you give a test for them to validate the code?
I had a test failing because I introduced a silly comparison bug (> instead of <), and claude 4.6 opus figured out it wasn't the test the problem, but the code and fixed the bug (which I had missed).
There was a test and a very useful golang error that literally explain what was wrong. The model tried implementing a solution, failed and when I pointed out the error most of them just rolled back the "solution"
What exact models were you using? And with what settings? 4.6 / 5.3 codex both with thinking / high modes?
minimax 2.5, kimi k2.5, codex 5.2, gemini 3 flash and pro, glm 4.7, devstral2 123b, etc.
Ok, thanks for the info
> I purposefully added one too many wg.Done
What do you believe this shows? Sometimes I have difficulty finding bugs in other people's code when they do things in ways I would never use. I can rewrite their code so it works, but I can't necessarily quickly identify the specific bug.
Expecting a model to be perfect on every problem isn't reasonable. No known entity is able to do that. AIs aren't supposed to be gods.
(Well not yet anyway - there is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer.)
When companies claim that AI writes 90% of their code you can expect that such a system can find obvious issues. Expectations are really high when you see statements such as the ones coming from the CEOs of the AI labs. When those expectations fall short, it's expected to see such reactions. It's the same proportionality on both sides.
It's hard to evaluate "logic" and "math", since they're made up of many largely disparate things. But I think modern AI models are clearly better at coding, for example, than 99% of the population. If you asked 100 people at your local grocery store why your goroutine system was failing, do you think multiple of them would know the answer?
> using the current models to help develop even smarter models.
That statement is plausible. However, extrapolating that to assert all the very different things which must be true to enable any form of 'singularity' would be a profound category error. There are many ways in which your first two sentences can be entirely true, while your third sentence requires a bunch of fundamental and extraordinary things to be true for which there is currently zero evidence.
Things like LLMs improving themselves in meaningful and novel ways and then iterating that self-improvement over multiple unattended generations in exponential runaway positive feedback loops resulting in tangible, real-world utility. All the impressive and rapid achievements in LLMs to date can still be true while major elements required for Foom-ish exponential take-off are still missing.
> I don’t think it’s hyperbolic to say that we may be only a single digit number of years away from the singularity.
We're back to singularity hype, but let's be real: benchmark gains are meaningless in the real world when the primary focus has shifted to gaming the metrics
Ok, here I am living in the real world finding these models have advanced incredibly over the past year for coding.
Benchmaxxing exists, but that’s not the only data point. It’s pretty clear that models are improving quickly in many domains in real world usage.
I use agentic tools daily and SOTA models have certainly improved a lot in the last year. But still in a linear, "they don't light my repo on fire as often when they get a confusing compiler error" kind of way, not a "I would now trust Opus 4.6 to respond to every work email and hands-off manage my banking and investment portfolio" kind of way.
They're still afflicted by the same fundamental problems that hold LLMs back from being a truly autonomous "drop-in human replacement" that would enable an entire new world of use cases.
And finally live up to the hype/dreams many of us couldn't help but feeling was right around in the corner circa 2022/3 when things really started taking off.
Yet even Anthropic has shown the downsides to using them. I don't think it is a given that improvements in models scores and capabilities + being able to churn code as fast as we can will lead us to a singularity, we'll need more than that.
I agree completely. I think we're in alignment with Elon Musk who says that AI will bypass coding entirely and create the binary directly.
It's going to be an exciting year.
There’s about as much sense doing this as there is in putting datacenters in orbit, i.e. it isn’t impossible, but literally any other option is better.
Anthropic took the day off to do a $30B raise at a $380B valuation.
Most ridiculous valuation in the history of markets. Cant wait to watch these compsnies crash snd burn when people give up on the slot machine.
As usual don't take financial advice from HN folks!
not as if you could get in on it even if you wanted to
WeWork almost IPO’s at $50bn. It was also a nice crash and burn.
Why? They had $10+ billion arr run rate in 2025 trippeled from 2024 I mean 30x is a lot but also not insane at that growth rate right?
It's a 13 days old account with IHateAI handle.
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its cause of a chain of events.
Next week Chinese New year -> Chinese labs release all the models at once before it starts -> US labs respond with what they have already prepared
also note that even in US labs a large proportion of researchers and engineers are chinese and many celebrate the Chinese New Year too.
TLDR: Chinese New Year. Happy Horse year everybody!
I’ve been using Gemini 3 Pro on a historical document archiving project for an old club. One of the guys had been working on scanning old handwritten minutes books written in German that were challenging to read (1885 through 1974). Anyways, I was getting decent results on a first pass with 50 page chunks but ended up doing 1 page at a time (accuracy probably 95%). For each page, I submit the page for a transcription pass followed by a translation of the returned transcription. About 2370 pages and sitting at about $50 in Gemini API billing. The output will need manual review, but the time savings is impressive.
Suggestion: run the identical prompt N times (2 identical calls to Gemini 3.0 Pro + 2 identical calls to GPT 5.2 Thinking), then running some basic text post-processing to see where the 4 responses agree vs disagree. The disagreements (substrings that aren't identical matches) are where scrutiny is needed. But if all 4 agree on some substring it's almost certainly a correct transcription. Wouldn't be too hard to get codex to vibe code all this.
Look what they need to mimic a fraction of [the power of having the logit probabilities exposed so you can actually see where the model is uncertain]
It sounds like a job where one pass might also be a viable option. Until you do the manual review you won't have a full sense of the time savings involved.
Good idea. I’ll try modifying the prompt to transcribe, identify the language, and translate if not English, and then return a structured result. In my spot checks, most of the errors are in people’s names and if the handwriting trails into margins (especially into the fold of the binding). Even with the data still needing review, the translations from it has revealed a lot of interesting characters as well as this little anecdote from the minutes of the June 6, 1941 Annual Meeting:
It had already rained at the beginning of the meeting. During the same, however, a heavy thunderstorm set in, whereby our electric light line was put out of operation. Wax candles with beer bottles as light holders provided the lighting. In the meantime the rain had fallen in a cloudburst-like manner, so that one needed help to get one's automobile going. In some streets the water stood so high that one could reach one's home only by detours. In this night 9.65 inches of rain had fallen.
One discovery I've made with gemini is that ocr accuracy is much higher when document is perfectly aligned at 0 degree. When we provided images with handwritten text to gemini which were horizontal (90 or 180 degree) it had lots of issues reading dates, names etc. Then we used paddle ocr image orientation model to find orientation and rotate the image it solved most of our issues with ocr.
They could likely increase their budget slightly and run an LLM-based judge.
Have you tried providing multiple pages at a time to the model? It might do better transcription as it have bigger context to work with.
Gemini 3 long context is not good as Gemini 2.5
I'm 100% sure that all providers are playing with the quantization, kv cache and other parameters of the models to be able to serve the demand. One of the biggest advantage of running a local model is that you get predictable behavior.
Google is absolutely running away with it. The greatest trick they ever pulled was letting people think they were behind.
Their models might be impressive, but their products absolutely suck donkey balls. I’ve given Gemini web/cli two months and ran away back to ChatGPT. Seriously, it would just COMPLETELY forget context mid dialog. When asked about improving air quality it just gave me a list of (mediocre) air purifiers without asking for any context whatsoever, and I can list thousands of conversations like that. Shopping or comparing options is just nonexistent. It uses Russian propaganda sources for answers and switches to Chinese mid sentence (!), while explaining some generic Python functionality. It’s an embarrassment and I don’t know how they justify 20 euro price tag on it.
I agree. On top of that, in true Google style, basic things just don't work.
Any time I upload an attachment, it just fails with something vague like "couldn't process file". Whether that's a simple .MD or .txt with less than 100 lines or a PDF. I tried making a gem today. It just wouldn't let me save it, with some vague error too.
I also tried having it read and write stuff to "my stuff" and Google drive. But it would consistently write but not be able to read from it again. Or would read one file from Google drive and ignore everything else.
Their models are seriously impressive. But as usual Google sucks at making them work well in real products.
I don't find that at all. At work, we've no access to the API, so we have to force feed a dozen (or more) documents, code and instruction prompts through the web interface upload interface. The only failures I've ever had in well over 300 sessions were due to connectivity issues, not interface failures.
Context window blowouts? All the time, but never document upload failures.
I'm talking about Gemini in the app and on the web. As well as AI studio. At work we go through Copilot, but there the agentic mode with Gemini isn't the best either.
Honestly this is as Google product as you can get. Prizes for some, beatings for others.
I've used their Pro models very successfully in demanding API workloads (classification, extraction, synthesis). On benchmarks it crushed the GPT-5 family. Gemini is my default right now for all API work.
It took me however a week to ditch Gemini 3 as a user. The hallucinations were off the charts compared to GPT-5. I've never even bothered with their CLI offering.
It’s all context/ use case; I’ve had weird things too but if you only use markdown inputs and specific prompts Gemini 3 Pro is insane, not to mention the context window
Also because of the long context window (1 mil tokens on thinking and pro! Claude and OpenAI only have 128k) deep research is the best
That being said, for coding I definitely still use Codex with GPT 5.3 XHigh lol
It's so capable at some things, and others are garbage. I uploaded a photo of some words for a spelling bee and asked it to quiz my kid on the words. The first word it asked, wasn't on the list. After multiple attempts to get it to start asking only the words in the uploaded pic, it did, and then would get the spellings wrong in the Q&A. I gave up.
I had it process a photo of my D&D character sheet and help me debug it as I'm a n00b at the game. Also did a decent, although not perfect, job of adding up a handwritten bowling score sheet.
Antigravity is an embarrassment.
The models feel terrible, somehow, like they're being fed terrible system prompts.
Plus the damn thing kept crashing and asking me to "restart it". What?!
At least Kiro does what it says on the tin.
My experience with Antigravity is the opposite. It's the first time in over 10 years that an IDE has managed to take me out a bit out of the jetbrain suite. I did not think that was something possible as I am a hardcore jetbrain user/lover.
Have you tried Cursor or VS Code with Github Copilot in agent mode (recently, not 3 or 6 months ago)?
I've recently tried a buuuuunch of stuff (including Antigravity and Kiro) and I really, really, could not stomach Antigravity.
It's literally just vscode? I tried it the other day and I couldn't tell it apart from windsurf besides the icon in my dock
Yeah same here. Even though it's vscode I'm still using it and don't plan to renew Intellij again. Gemini was crap but Opus smashes it.
It is windsurf isn't it, why would you expect it to be different?
How can the models be impressive if they switch to Chinese mid-sentence? I've observed those bizarre bugs too. Even GPT-3 didn't have those. Maybe GPT-2 did. It's actually impressive that they managed to botch it so badly.
Google is great at some things, but this isn't it.
100x agree. It gives inconsistent edits, would regularly try to perform things I explicitly command to not.
Sadly true.
It is also one of the worst models to have a sort of ongoing conversation with.
I don't have any of these issues with Gemini. I use it heavily everyday. A few glitches here and there, but it's been enormously productive for me. Far more so then chatgpt, which I find mostly useless.
Agreed on the product. I can't make Gemini read my emails on GMail. One day it says it doesn't have access, the other day it says Query unsuccessful. Claude Desktop has no problem reaching to GMail, on the other hand :)
And it gives incorrect answers about itself and google’s services all the time. It kept pointing me to nonexistent ui elements. At least it apologizes profusely! ffs
Their models are absolutely not impressive.
Not a single person is using it for coding (outside of Google itself).
Maybe some people on a very generous free plan.
Their model is a fine mid 2025 model, backed by enormous compute resources and an army of GDM engineers to help the “researchers” keep the model on task as it traverses the “tree of thoughts”.
But that isn’t “the model” that’s an old model backed by massive money.
Uhh, just false.
It's just poop tier.
Come on.
Worthless.
Do you have any market counter points.
Market counter points that aren't really just a repackaging of:
1. "Google has the world's best distribution" and/or
2. "Google has a firehose of money that allows them to sell their 'AI product' at an enormous discount?
These benchmarks are super impressive. That said, Gemini 3 Pro benchmarked well on coding tasks, and yet I found it abysmal. A distant third behind Codex and Claude.
Tool calling failures, hallucinations, bad code output. It felt like using a coding model from a year ago.
Even just as a general use model, somehow ChatGPT has a smoother integration with web search (than google!!), knowing when to use it, and not needing me to prompt it directly multiple times to search.
Not sure what happened there. They have all the ingredients in theory but they've really fallen behind on actual usability.
Their image models are kicking ass though.
Peacetime Google is not like wartime Google.
Peacetime Google is slow, bumbling, bureaucratic. Wartime Google gets shit done.
OpenAI is the best thing that happened to Google apparently.
Just not search. The search product has pretty much become useless over the past 3 years and the AI answers often will get just to the level of 5 years ago. This creates a sense that that things are better - but really it’s just become impossible to get reliable information from an avenue that used to work very well.
I don’t think this is intentional, but I think they stopped fighting SEO entirely to focus on AI. Recipes are the best example - completely gutted and almost all receive sites (therefore the entire search page) run by the same company. I didn’t realize how utterly consolidated huge portions of information on the internet was until every recipe site about 3 months ago simultaneously implemented the same anti-Adblock.
The search product become useless on a particular day of 2019 as discussed on HN News some time ago:
Competition always is. I think there was a real fear that their core product was going to be replaced. They're already cannibalizing it internally so it was THE wake up call.
Next they compete on ads...
Wartime Google gave us Google+. Wartime Google is still bumbling, and despite OpenAI's numerous missteps, I don't think it has to worry about Google hurting its business yet.
I do miss Google+. For my brain / use case, it was by far the best social network out there, and the Circle friends and interest management system is still unparalleled :)
Google+ was fun. Failed in the market though.
Apple made a social network called Ping. Disaster. MobileMe was silly.
Microsoft made Zune and the Kin 1 and Kin 2 devices and Windows phone and all sorts of other disasters.
These things happen.
Windows Phone was actually good. I would even say that my Lumia something was one of best experiences ever on mobile. G+ was also good. Efficient markets mean that you can "extract" rent, via selling data or attention etc. not realy what is good
I have a hypothesis that Google+ just wasn't addictive. Which is a good thing now, but not back then
But wait two hours for what OpenAI has! I love the competition and how someone just a few days ago was telling how ARC-AGI-2 was proof that LLMs can't reason. The goalposts will shift again. I feel like most of human endeavor will soon be just about trying to continuously show that AI's don't have AGI.
> I feel like most of human endeavor will soon be just about trying to continuously show that AI's don't have AGI.
I think you overestimate how much your average person-on-the-street cares about LLM benchmarks. They already treat ChatGPT or whichever as generally intelligent (including to their own detriment), are frustrated about their social media feeds filling up with slop and, maybe, if they're white-collar, worry about their jobs disappearing due to AI. Apart from a tiny minority in some specific field, people already know themselves to be less intelligent along any measurable axis than someone somewhere.
"AGI" doesn't mean anything concrete, so it's all a bunch of non-sequiturs. Your goalposts don't exist.
Anyone with any sense is interested in how well these tools work and how they can be harnessed, not some imaginary milestone that is not defined and cannot be measured.
I agree. I think the emergence of LLMs have shown that AGI really has no teeth. I think for decades the Turing test was viewed as the gold standard, but it's clear that there doesn't appear to be any good metric.
The turing test was passed in the 80s, somehow it has remained relevant in pop culture despite the fact that it's not a particularly difficult technical achievement
It wasn’t passed in the 80s. Not the general Turing test.
c. 2022 for me.
Soon they can drop the bioweapon to welcome our replacement.
Not in my experience with Gemini Pro and coding. It hallucinates APIs that aren't there. Claude does not do that.
Gemini has flashes of brilliance, but I regard it as unpolished some things work amazingly, some basics don't work.
It's very hard to tell the difference between bad models and stinginess with compute.
I subscribe to both Gemini ($20/mo) and ChatGPT Pro ($200/mo).
If I give the same question to "Gemini 3.0 Pro" and "ChatGPT 5.2 Thinking + Heavy thinking", the latter is 4x slower and it gives smarter answers.
I shouldn't have to enumerate all the different plausible explanations for this observation. Anything from Gemini deciding to nerf the reasoning effort to save compute, versus TPUs being faster, to Gemini being worse, to this being my idiosyncratic experience, all fit the same data, and are all plausible.
You nailed it. Gemini 3 Pro seems very "lazy" and seems to never reason for more than 30 seconds, which significantly impacts the quality of its outputs.
I'd personally bet on Google and Meta in the long run since they have access to the most interesting datasets from their other operations.
Agree. Anyone with access to large proprietary data has an edge in their space (not necessarily for foundation models): Salesforce, adobe, AutoCAD, caterpillar
They seem to be optimizing for benchmarks instead of real world use
Yeah if only Gemini performed half as well as it does on benches, we'd actually be using it.
What is their Claude code equivalent?
gemini cli - https://geminicli.com/
It was obvious to me that they were top contender 2 years ago ... https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1c0je6h/google_...
Gemini's UX (and of course privacy cred as with anything Google) is the worst of all the AI apps. In the eyes of the Common Man, it's UI that will win out, and ChatGPT's is still the best.
Google privacy cred is ... excellent? The worst data breach I know of them having was a flaw that allowed access to names and emails of 500k users.
Link? Are you conflating with "500k Gmail accounts leaked [by a third party]" with Gmail having a breach?
Afaik, Google has had no breaches ever.
Google is the breach.
Their SECURITY cred is fantastic.
Privacy, not so much. How many hundreds of millions have they been fined for “incognito mode” in chrome being a blatant lie?
> Their SECURITY cred is fantastic.
In a world where Android vulnerabilities and exploits don't exist
Google's most profitable branch is adsense, they don't need breaches for them to have privacy issues given that elephant sized conflict of interest.
If you consider "privacy" to be 'a giant corporation tracks every bit of possible information about you and everyone else'?
OpenAI is running ads. Do you think they'll track less?
They don't even let you have multiple chats if you disable their "App Activity" or whatever (wtf is with that ass naming? they don't even have a "Privacy" section in their settings the last time I checked)
and when I swap back into the Gemini app on my iPhone after a minute or so the chat disappears. and other weird passive-aggressive take-my-toys-away behavior if you don't bare your body and soul to Googlezebub.
ChatGPT and Grok work so much better without accounts or with high privacy settings.
I find Gemini's web page much snappier to use than ChatGPT - I've largely swapped to it for most things except more agentic tasks.
> Gemini's UX ... is the worst of all the AI apps
Been using Gemini + OpenCode for the past couple weeks.
Suddenly, I get a "you need a Gemini Access Code license" error but when you go to the project page there is no mention of this or how to get the license.
You really feel the "We're the phone company and we don't care. Why? Because we don't have to." [0] when you use these Google products.
PS for those that don't get the reference: US phone companies in the 1970s had a monopoly on local and long distance phone service. Similar to Google for search/ads (really a "near" monopoly but close enough).
You mean AI Studio or something like that, right? Because I can't see a problem with Google's standard chat interface. All other AI offerings are confusing both regarding their intended use and their UX, though, I have to concur with that.
The lack of "projects" alone makes their chat interface really unpleasant compared to ChatGPT and Claude.
No projects, completely forgets context mid dialog, mediocre responses even on thinking, research got kneecapped somehow and is completely uses now, uses propaganda Russian videos as the search material (what’s wrong with you, Google?), janky on mobile, consumes GIGABYTES of RAM on web (seriously, what the fuck?). Left a couple of tabs over night, Mac is almost complete frozen because 10 tabs consumed 8 GBs of RAM doing nothing. It’s a complete joke.
Fair enough. I'm always astonished how different experiences are because mine is the complete opposite. I almost solely use it for help with Go and Javascript programming and found Gemini Pro to be more useful than any other model. ChatGPT was the worst offender so far, completely useless, but Claude has also been suboptimal for my use cases.
I guess it depends a lot on what you use LLMs for and how they are prompted. For example, Gemini fails the simple "count from 1 to 200 in words" test whereas Claude does it without further questions.
Another possible explanation would be that processing time is distributed unevenly across the globe and companies stay silent about this. Maybe depending on time zones?
AI Studio is also significantly improved as of yesterday.
Gemini is completely unusable in VS Code. It's rated 2/5 stars, pathetic: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=Google.g...
Requests regularly time out, the whole window freezes, it gets stuck in schizophrenic loops, edits cannot be reverted and more.
It doesn't even come close to Claude or ChatGPT.
Once Google launched Antigravity, I stopped using VS Code.
Smart idea to say anything against Google here from a throwaway account, I'm sitting in negative karma for that :')
Anti Google comments do pretty well on average. It's a popular sentiment. However, low effort comments don't.
Those black nazis in the first image model were a cause of inside trading.
I'm leery to use a Google product in light of their history of discontinuing services. It'd have to be significantly better than a similar product from a committed competitor.
Google is still behind the largest models I'd say, in real world utility. Gemini 3 Pro still has many issues.
They were behind. Way behind. But they caught up.
Trick? Lol not a chance. Alphabet is a pure play tech firm that has to produce products to make the tech accessible. They really lack in the latter and this is visible when you see the interactions of their VP's. Luckily for them, if you start to create enough of a lead with the tech, you get many chances to sort out the product stuff.
You sound like Russ Hanneman from SV
It's not about how much you earn. It's about what you're worth.
Don't let the benchmarks fool you. Gemini models are completely useless not matter how smart they are. Google still hasn't figure out tool calling and making the model follow instructions. They seem to only care about benchmarking and being the most intelligent model on paper. This has been a problem of Gemini since 1.0 and they still haven't fixed it.
Also the worst model in terms of hallucinations.
Disagree.
Claude Code is great for coding, Gemini is better than everything else for everything else.
What is "everything else" in your view? Just curious -- I really only seriously use models for coding, so I am curious what I am missing.
Role-playing but Claude is as bad, same censored garbage with the CEO wanting to be your dad. Grok is best for everything else by far.
Are you using Gemini model itself or using the Gemini App? They are different.
Both
And mathematics?
OT but my intuition says that there’s a spectrum
- non thinking models
- thinking models
- best of N models like deep think an gpt pro
Each one is of a certain computational complexity. Simplifying a bit, I think they map to - linear, quadratic and n^3 respectively.
I think there are certain class of problems that can’t be solved without thinking because it necessarily involves writing in a scratchpad. And same for best of N which involves exploring.
Two open questions
1) what’s the higher level here, is there a 4th option?
2) can a sufficiently large non thinking model perform the same as a smaller thinking?
I think step 4 is the agent swarm. Manager model gets the prompt and spins up a swarm of looping subagents, maybe assigns them different approaches or subtasks, then reviews results, refines the context files and redeploys the swarm on a loop till the problem is solved or your credit card is declined.
So Google Answers is coming back?!?!?!
i think this is the right answer
edit: i don't know how this is meaningfully different from 3
> best of N models like deep think an gpt pro
Yeah, these are made possible largely by better use at high context lengths. You also need a step that gathers all the Ns and selects the best ideas / parts and compiles the final output. Goog have been SotA at useful long context for a while now (since 2.5 I'd say). Many others have come with "1M context", but their usefulness after 100k-200k is iffy.
What's even more interesting than maj@n or best of n is pass@n. For a lot of applications youc an frame the question and search space such that pass@n is your success rate. Think security exploit finding. Or optimisation problems with quick checks (better algos, kernels, infra routing, etc). It doesn't matter how good your pass@1 or avg@n is, all you care is that you find more as you spend more time. Literally throwing money at the problem.
The difference between thinking and no-thinking models can be a little blurry. For example, when doing coding tasks Anthropic models with no-thinking mode tend to use a lot of comments to act as a scratchpad. In contrast, models in thinking mode don't do this because they don't need to.
Ultimately, the only real difference between no-thinking and thinking models is the amount of tokens used to reach the final answer. Whether those extra scratchpad tokens are between <think></think> tags or not doesn't really matter.
> can a sufficiently large non thinking model perform the same as a smaller thinking?
Models from Anthropic have always been excellent at this. See e.g. https://imgur.com/a/EwW9H6q (top-left Opus 4.6 is without thinking).
its interesting that opus 4.6 added a paramter to make it think extra hard.
Here is the methodologies for all the benchmarks: https://storage.googleapis.com/deepmind-media/gemini/gemini_...
The arc-agi-2 score (84.6%) is from the semi-private eval set. If gemini-3-deepthink gets above 85% on the private eval set, it will be considered "solved"
>Submit a solution which scores 85% on the ARC-AGI-2 private evaluation set and win $700K. https://arcprize.org/guide#overview
Interestingly, the title of that PDF calls it "Gemini 3.1 Pro". Guess that's dropping soon.
I looked at the file name but not the document title (specifically because I was wondering if this is 3.1). Good spot.
edit: they just removed the reference to "3.1" from the pdf
I think this is 3.1 (3.0 Pro with the RL improv of 3.0 Flash). But they probably decided to market it as Deep Think because why not charge more for it.
The Deep Think moniker is for parallel compute models though, not long CoT like pro models.
It's possible though that deep think 3 is running 3.1 models under the hood.
That's odd considering 3.0 is still labeled a "preview" release.
I think it'll be 3.1 by the time it's labelled GA - they said after 3.0 launch that they figured out new RL methods for Flash that the Pro model hasn't benefitted from.
Comment was deleted :(
The rumor was that 3.1 was today's drop
Where are these rumors floating around?
Huh, so if a China-based lab takes ARC-AGI-2 on the new year, then they can say they had just-shy of a solution anyway.
> If gemini-3-deepthink gets above 85% on the private eval set, it will be considered "solved"
They never will do on private set, because it would mean its being leaked to google.
It's a shame that it's not on OpenRouter. I hate platform lock-in, but the top-tier "deep think" models have been increasingly requiring the use of their own platform.
OpenRouter is pretty great but I think litellm does a very good job and it's not a platform middle man, just a python library. That being said, I have tried it with the deep think models.
Part of OpenRouter's appeal to me is precisely that it is a middle man. I don't want to create accounts on every provider, and juggle all the API keys myself. I suppose this increases my exposure, but I trust all these providers and proxies the same (i.e. not at all), so I'm careful about the data I give them to begin with.
Unfortunately that's ending with mandatory-BYOK from the model vendors. They're starting to require that you BYOK to force you through their arbitrary+capricious onboarding process.
Will still be able to use open weights models, which is what I use openrouter primarily for anyway
The golden age is over.
it is interesting that the video demo is generating .stl model. I run a lot of tests of LLMs generating OpenSCAD code (as I have recently launched https://modelrift.com text-to-CAD AI editor) and Gemini 3 family LLMs are actually giving the best price-to-performance ratio now. But they are very, VERY far from being able to spit out a complex OpenSCAD model in one shot. So, I had to implement a full fledged "screenshot-vibe-coding" workflow where you draw arrows on 3d model snapshot to explain to LLM what is wrong with the geometry. Without human in the loop, all top tier LLMs hallucinate at debugging 3d geometry in agentic mode - and fail spectacularly.
Hey, my 9 year old son uses modelrift for creating things for his 3d printer, its great! Product feedback: 1. You should probably ask me to pay now, I feel like i've used it enough. 2. You need a main dashboard page with a history of sessions. He thought he lost a file and I had to dig in the billing history to get a UUID I thought was it and generate the url. I would say naming sessions is important, and could be done with small LLM after the users initial prompt. 3. I don't think I like the default 3d model in there once I have done something, blank would be better.
We download the stl and import to bambu. Works pretty well. A direct push would be nice, but not necessary.
Thank you for this feedback, very valuable! I am using Bambu as well - perfect to get things printed without much hassle. Not sure if direct push to printer is possible though, as their ecosystem looks pretty closed. It would be a perfect use case - if we could use ModelRift to design a model on a mobile phone and push to print..
proper sessions page is live: https://modelrift.com/changelog/v0-3-2
let me know how it goes!
Yes, I've been waiting for a real breakthrough with regard to 3D parametric models and I don't think think this is it. The proprietary nature of the major players (Creo, Solidworks, NX, etc) is a major drag. Sure there's STP, but there's too much design intent and feature loss there. I don't think OpenSCAD has the critical mass of mindshare or training data at this point, but maybe it's the best chance to force a change.
I was looking for your GitHub, but the link on the homepage is broken: https://github.com/modelrift
right, I need to fix this one
yes, i had the same experience. As good as LLMs are now at coding - it seems they are still far away from being useful in vision dominated engineering tasks like CAD/design. I guess it is a training data problem. Maybe world models / artificial data can help here?
If you want that to get better, you need to produce a 3d model benchmark and popularize it. You can start with a pelican riding a bicycle with working bicycle.
I am building pretty much the same product as OP, and have a pretty good harness to test LLMs. In fact I have run a tons of tests already. It’s currently aimed for my own internal tests, but making something that is easier to digest should be a breeze. If you are curious: https://grandpacad.com/evals
building a benchmark is a great idea, thanks, maybe I will have a couple of days to spend on this soon
It found a small but nice little optimization in Stockfish: https://github.com/official-stockfish/Stockfish/pull/6613
Previous models including Claude Opus 4.6 have generally produced a lot of noise/things that the compiler already reliably optimizes out.
I just tested it on a very difficult Raven matrix, that the old version of DeepThink, as well as GPT 5.2 Pro, Claude Opus 4.6, and pretty much every other model failed at.
This version of DeepSeek got it first try. Thinking time was 2 or 3 minutes.
The visual reasoning of this class of Gemini models is incredibly impressive.
Deep Think not DeepSeek
Gemini has always felt like someone who was book smart to me. It knows a lot of things. But if you ask it do anything that is offscript it completely falls apart
I strongly suspect there's a major component of this type of experience being that people develop a way of talking to a particular LLM that's very efficient and works well for them with it, but is in many respects non-transferable to rival models. For instance, in my experience, OpenAI models are remarkably worse than Google models in basically any criterion I could imagine; however, I've spent most of my time using the Google ones and it's only during this time that the differences became apparent and, over time, much more pronounced. I would not be surprised at all to learn that people who chose to primarily use Anthropic or OpenAI models during that time had an exactly analogous experience that convinced them their model was the best.
We train the AI. The AI then trains us.
I'd rather say it has a mind of its own; it does things its way. But I have not tested this model, so they might have improved its instruction following.
Well, one thing i know for sure: it reliably misplaces parentheses in lisps.
Clearly, the AI is trying to steer you towards the ML family of languages for its better type system, performance, and concurrency ;)
I made offmetaedh.com with it. Feels pretty great to me.
According to benchmarks in the announcement, healthily ahead of Claude 4.6. I guess they didn't test ChatGPT 5.3 though.
Google has definitely been pulling ahead in AI over the last few months. I've been using Gemini and finding it's better than the other models (especially for biology where it doesn't refuse to answer harmless questions).
Google is way ahead in visual AI and world modelling. They're lagging hard in agentic AI and autonomous behavior.
The general purpose ChatGpt 5.3 hasn’t been released yet, just 5.3-codex.
It's ahead in raw power but not in function. Like it's got the worlds fast engine but one gear! Trouble is some benchmarks only measure horse power.
> Trouble is some benchmarks only measure horse power.
IMO it's the other way around. Benchmarks only measure applied horse power on a set plane, with no friction and your elephant is a point sphere. Goog's models have always punched over what benchmarks said, in real world use @ high context. They don't focus on "agentic this" or "specialised that", but the raw models, with good guidance are workhorses. I don't know any other models where you can throw lots of docs at it and get proper context following and data extraction from wherever it's at to where you'd need it.
> especially for biology where it doesn't refuse to answer harmless questions
Usually, when you decrease false positive rates, you increase false negative rates.
Maybe this doesn't matter for models at their current capabilities, but if you believe that AGI is imminent, a bit of conservatism seems responsible.
Google models and CLI harness feels behind in agentic coding compared OpenAI and Antrophic
I gather that 4.6 strengths are in long context agentic workflows? At least over Gemini 3 pro preview, opus 4.6 seems to have a lot of advantages
It's a giant game of leapfrog, shift or stretch time out a bit and they all look equivalent
The comparison should be with GPT 5.2 pro which has been used successfully to solve open math problems.
The problem here is that it looks like this is released with almost no real access. How are people using this without submitting to a $250/mo subscription?
I have some very difficult to debug bugs that Opus 4.6 is failing at. Planning to pay $250 to see if it can solve those.
People are paying for the subscriptions.
I gather this isn't intended a consumer product. It's for academia and research institutions.
Is xAI out of the race? I’m not on a subscription, but their Ara voice model is my favorite. Gemini on iOS is pretty terrible in voice mode. I suspect because they have aggressive throttling instructions to keep output tokens low.
I'm pretty certain that DeepMind (and all other labs) will try their frontier (and even private) models on First Proof [1].
And I wonder how Gemini Deep Think will fare. My guess is that it will get half the way on some problems. But we will have to take an absence as a failure, because nobody wants to publish a negative result, even though it's so important for scientific research.
As a non-mathematician, reading these problems feels like reading a completely foreign language.
LLM to the rescue. Feed in a problem and ask it to explain it to a layperson. Also feed in sentences that remain obscure and ask to unpack.
The 1st proof original solutions are due to be published in about 24h, AIUI.
Feels like an unforced blunder to make the time window so short after going to so much effort and coming up with something so useful.
5 days for Ai is by no mean short! If it can solve it, it would need perhaps 1-2 hours. If it can not, 5 days continuous running would produce gibberish only. We can safely assume that such private models will run inferences entirely on dedicated hardware, sharing with nobody. So if they could not solve the problems, it's not due to any artificial constraint or lack of resources, far from it.
The 5 days window, however, is a sweat spot because it likely prevents cheating by hiring a math PhD and feed the AI with hints and ideas.
5 days is short for memetic propagation on social media to reach everyone who has their own harness and agentic setup that wants to have a go.
That's not really how it works, the recent Erdos proofs in Lean were done by a specialized proprietary model (Aristotle by Harmonic) that's specifically trained for this task. Normal agents are not effective.
Why did you omit the other AI-generated Erdos proofs not done by a proprietary model, which occurred on timescales stretched across significantly longer time than 5 days?
Those were not really "proofs" by the standard of 1stproof. The only way an AI can possibly convince an unsympathetic peer reviewer that its proof is correct is to write it completely in a formal system like Lean. The so-called "proofs" done with GPT were half baked and required significant human input, hints, fixing after the fact etc. which is enough to disqualify them from this effort.
Really surprised that 1stproof.org was submitted three times and never made front page at HN.
https://hn.algolia.com/?q=1stproof
This is exactly the kind of challenge I would want to judge AI systems based on. It required ten bleeding-edge-research mathematicians to publish a problem they've solved but hold back the answer. I appreciate the huge amount of social capital and coordination that must have taken.
I'm really glad they did it.
Of course it isn't made the front page. If something is promising they hunt it down, and when conquered they post about it. Lot of times the new category has much better results, than the default HN view.
I feel like a luddite: unless I am running small local models, I use gemini-3-flash for almost everything: great for tool use, embedded use in applications, and Python agentic libraries, broad knowledge, good built in web search tool, etc. Oh, and it is fast and cheap.
I really only use gemini-3-pro occasionally when researching and trying to better understand something. I guess I am not a good customer for super scalers. That said, when I get home from travel, I will make a point of using Gemini 3 Deep Think for some practical research. I need a business card with the title "Old Luddite."
3 Flash is criminally under appreciated for its performance/cost/speed trifecta. Absolutely in a category of its own.
Comment was deleted :(
The pelican riding a bicycle is excellent. I think it's the best I've seen.
So, you've said multiple times in the past that you're not concerned about AI labs training for this specific test because if they did, it would be so obviously incongruous that you'd easily spot the manipulation and call them out.
Which tbh has never really sat right with me, seemingly placing way too much confidence in your ability to differentiate organic vs. manipulated output in a way I don't think any human could be expected to.
To me, this example is an extremely neat and professional SVG and so far ahead it almost seems too good to be true. But like with every previous model, you don't seem to have the slightest amount of skepticism in your review. I don't think I truly believe Google cheated here, but it's so good it does therefore make me question whether there could ever be an example of a pelican SVG in the future that actually could trigger your BS detector?
I know you say it's just a fun/dumb benchmark that's not super important, but you're easily in the top 3 most well known AI "influencers" whose opinion/reviews about model releases carry a lot of weight, providing a lot of incentive with trillions of dollars flying around. Are you still not at all concerned by the amount of attention this benchmark receives now/your risk of unwittingly being manipulated?
The other SVGs I tried from my private collection of prompts were all similarly impressive.
Is there a way you can showcase a few of these?
Not without people later saying "you shared that on Hacker News last year clearly the AI labs are training for it now!"
Couldn't you just make up new combinations, or new caveats indefinitely to mitigate that? It would be nice to see maybe 3-4 good examples for validation. I'd do it myself, but I don't have $200 to play around with this model.
Here's what it gave me for a kakapo on a skateboard https://gist.github.com/simonw/5e2041c32333effd090e3df42b64d...
Thank you!
Tbh they'd have to be absolutely useless at benchmarkmaxxing if they didn't include your pelican riding a bicycle...
This benchmark outcome is actually really impressive given the difficulty of this task. It shows that this particular model manages to "think" coherently and maintain useful information in its context for what has to be an insane overall amount of tokens, likely across parallel "thinking" chains. Likely also has access to SVG-rendering tools and can "see" and iterate on the result via multimodal input.
Wow. I wonder how it would do with pure CSS a la https://diana-adrianne.com/
We've reached PGI
I routinely check out the pelicans you post and I do agree, this is the best yet. It seemed to me that the wings/arms were such a big hangup for these generators.
>"The pelican riding a bicycle is excellent. I think it's the best I've seen. https://simonwillison.net/2026/Feb/12/gemini-3-deep-think/"
Yeah this is nuts. First real step-change we've seen since Claude 3.5 in '24.
How likely this problem is already on the training set by now?
If anyone trains a model on https://simonwillison.net/tags/pelican-riding-a-bicycle/ they're going to get some VERY weird looking pelicans.
Why would they train on that? Why not just hire someone to make a few examples.
I look forward to them trying. I'll know when the pelican riding a bicycle is good but the ocelot riding a skateboard sucks.
Would it not be better to have 100 such tests "Pelican on bicycle", "Tiger on stilts"..., and generate them all for every new model but only release a new one each time. That way you could show progression across all models, attempts at benchmaxxing would be more obvious.
Given the crazy money and vying for supremacy among AI companies right now it does seem naive to belive that no attempt at better pelicans on bicycles is being made. You can argue "but I will know because of the quality of ocelots on skateboards" but without a back catalog of ocelots on skateboards to publish its one datapoint and leaves the AI companies with too much plausible deniability.
The pelicans-on-bicycles is a bit of fun for you (and us!) but it has become a measure of the quality of models so its serious business for them.
There is an assymetry of incentives and high risk you are being their useful idiot. Sorry to be blunt.
Or indeed do the Markov chain conceptual slip. Pelican on bicycle, badger on stool, tiger on acid. Pelican on bicycle is definitely cooked, though: people know it and it's talked about in language.
But they could just train on an assortment of animals and vehicles. It's the kind of relatively narrow domain where NNs could reasonably interpolate.
The idea that an AI lab would pay a small army of human artists to create training data for $animal on $transport just to cheat on my stupid benchmark delights me.
When you're spending trillions on capex, paying a couple of people to make some doodles in SVGs would not be a big expense.
I think no matter what happens with AI in the future, there will always be a subset of people with elaborate conspiracies about how it's all fake/a hoax.
I'm not saying it's a hoax. If it gets better because of that data, tant mieux, but we have to be clear eyed about what these models are actually doing. Especially when companies don't explain what they've done.
The embarrassment of getting caught doing that would be expensive.
Vetting them for the potential for whistleblowing might be a bit more involved. But conspiracy theories have an advantage because the lack of evidence is evidence for the theory.
Huh? AI labs are routinely spending millions to billions to various 3rd party contractors specializing in creating/labeling/verifying specialized content for pre/post-training.
This would just be one more checkbox buried in hundreds of pages of requests, and compared to plenty of other ethical grey areas like copyright laundering with actual legal implications, leaking that someone was asked to create a few dozen pelican images seems like it would be at the very bottom of the list of reputational risks.
How do you think who's in on that? Not only pelicans, I mean, the whole thing. CEOs, top researchers, select mathematicians, congressmen? Does China participate in maintaining the bubble?
I, myself, prefer the universal approximation theorem and empirical finding that stochastic gradient descent is good enough (and "no 'magic' in the brain", of course).
Well, since we're all talking about sourcing training material to "benchmaxx" for social proof, and not litigating the whole "AI bubble" debate, just the entire cottage industry of data curation firms:
https://www.appen.com/llm-training-data
https://www.cogitotech.com/generative-ai/
https://www.telusdigital.com/solutions/data-for-ai-training/...
https://www.nexdata.ai/industries/generative-ai
---
P.S. Google Comms would have been consulted re putting a pelican in the I/O keynote :-)
Cool. At least they are working across the board and benchmaxing random things like the theory of mind.
For every combination of animal and vehicle? Very unlikely.
The beauty of this benchmark is that it takes all of two seconds to come up with your own unique one. A seahorse on a unicycle. A platypus flying a glider. A man’o’war piloting a Portuguese man of war. Whatever you want.
No, not every combination. The question is about the specific combination of a pelican on a bicycle. It might be easy to come up with another test, but we're looking at the results from a particular one here.
You can easily make a RLAIF loop.
- Take a list of n animals * m vehicule
- Ask a LLM to generate SVG for this n*m options
- Generate png from the svg
- Ask a Model with vision to grade the result
- Change your weight accordingly
No need to human to draw the dataset, no need of human to evaluate.
More likely you would just train for emitting svg for some description of a scene and create training data from raster images.
None of this works if the testers are collaborating with the trainers. The tests ostensibly need to be arms-length from the training. If the trainers ever start over-fitting to the test, the tester would come up with some new test secretly.
You can always ask for a tyrannosaurus driving a tank.
I've heard it posited that the reason the frontier companies are frontier is because they have custom data and evals. This is what I would do too
Comment was deleted :(
Is there a list of these for each model, that you've catalogued somewhere?
At the moment that's mostly my tag page here but I really need to formalize it: https://simonwillison.net/tags/pelican-riding-a-bicycle/
The reflection of the sun in the water is completely wrong. LLMs are still useless. (/s)
It's not actually, look up some photos of the sun setting over the ocean. Here's an example:
That’s only if the sun is above the horizon entirely.
Yes, it is. In that photo the sun is clearly above the horizon, the bottom half is just obscured by clouds.
Do you have to still keep trying to bang on about this relentlessly?
It was sort of humorous for the maybe first 2 iterations, now it's tacky, cheesy, and just relentless self-promotion.
Again, like I said before, it's also a terrible benchmark.
It's HN's Carthago delenda est moment.
I'll agree to disagree. In any thread about a new model, I personally expect the pelican comment to be out there. It's informative, ritualistic and frankly fun. Your comment however, is a little harsh. Why mad?
It being a terrible benchmark is the bit.
Eh, i find it more of a not very informative but lighthearted commentary
It's worth noting that you mean excellent in terms of prior AI output. I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be considered excellent from a "human made art" perspective. In other words, it's still got a ways to go!
Edit: someone needs to explain why this comment is getting downvoted, because I don't understand. Did someone's ego get hurt, or what?
It depends, if you meant from a human coding an SVG "manually" the same way, I'd still say this is excellent (minus the reflection issue). If you meant a human using a proper vector editor, then yeah.
maybe you're a pro vector artist but I couldn't create such a cool one myself in illustrator tbh
Indeed. And when you factor in the amount invested... yeah it looks less impressive. The question is how much more money needs to be invested to get this thing closer to reality? And not just in this instance. But for any instance e.g. a seahorse on a bike.
Highly disagree.
I was expecting something more realistic... the true test of what you are doing is how representative is the thing in relation to the real world. E.g. does the pelican look like a pelican as it exists in reality? This cartoon stuff is cute but doesnt pass muster in my view.
If it doesn't relate to the real world, then it most likely will have no real effect on the real economy. Pure and simple.
I disagree. The task asks for an SVG; which is a vector format associated with line drawings, clipart and cartoons. I think it's good that models are picking up on that context.
In contrast, the only "realistic" SVGs I've seen are created using tools like potrace, and look terrible.
I also think the prompt itself, of a pelican on bicycle, is unrealistic and cartoonish; so making a cartoon is a good way to solve the task.
The request is for an SVG, generally _not_ the format for photorealistic images. If you want to start your own benchmark, feel free to ask for a photorealistic JPEG or PNG of a pelican riding a bicycle. Could be interesting to compare and contrast, honestly.
I can't shake of the feeling that Googles Deep Think Models are not really different models but just the old ones being run with higher number of parallel subagents, something you can do by yourself with their base model and opencode.
And after i do that, how do i combine the output of 1000 subagents into one output? (Im not being snarky here, i think it's a nontrivial problem)
You just pipe it to another agent to do the reduce step (i.e. fan-in) of the mapreduce (fan-out)
It's agents all the way down.
No it's not because cost is much lower. They do some kind of speculative decoding in monte-carlo way If I had to guess as humans do it this way is my hunch. What I mean it's kinda the way you describe but much more efficient.
The idea is that each subagent is focused on a specific part of the problem and can use its entire context window for a more focused subtask than the overall one. So ideally the results arent conflicting, they are complimentary. And you just have a system that merges them.. likely another agent.
Claude Cowork does this by default and you can see how exactly it is coordinating them etc.
Start with 1024 and use half the number of agents each turn to distill the final result.
They could do it this way: generate 10 reasoning traces and then every N tokens they prune the 9 that have the lowest likelihood, and continue from the highest likelihood trace.
This is a form of task-agnostic test time search that is more general than multi agent parallel prompt harnesses.
10 traces makes sense because ChatGPT 5.2 Pro is 10x more expensive per token.
That's something you can't replicate without access to the network output pre token sampling.
It’s incredible how fast these models are getting better. I thought for sure a wall would be hit, but these numbers smashes previous benchmarks. Anyone have any idea what the big unlock that people are finding now?
Companies are optimizing for all the big benchmarks. This is why there is so little correlation between benchmark performance and real world performance now.
Isn’t there? I mean, Claude code has been my biggest usecase and it basically one shots everything now
Yes, LLMs have become extremely good at coding (not software engineer though). But try using them for anything original that cannot be adapted from GitHub and Stack Overflow. I haven't seen much improvement at all at such tasks.
No shot, their classic engineering ability has exploded too.
The amount of information available online about optics is probably <0.001% of what is available for software, and they can just breeze through modeling solutions. A year ago was immediate face-planting.
The gains are likely coming from exactly where they say they are coming from - scaling compute.
Strongly disagree with this. And I'm going to provide as much evidence as you did.
Do we get any model architecture details like parameter size etc.? Few months back, we used to talk more on this, now it's mostly about model capabilities.
I'm honestly not sure what you mean? The frontier labs have kept arch as secrets since gpt3.5
At the very least gemini 3's flyer claims 1T parameters.
I'm impressed with the Arc-AGI-2 results - though readers beware... They achieved this score at a cost of $13.62 per task.
For context, Opus 4.6's best score is 68.8% - but at a cost of $3.64 per task.
Less than a year to destroy Arc-AGI-2 - wow.
I unironically believe that arc-agi-3 will have a introduction to solved time of 1 month
Not very likely?
ARC-AGI-3 has a nasty combo of spatial reasoning + explore/exploit. It's basically adversarial vs current AIs.
We will see at the end of April right? It's more of a guess than a strongly held conviction--but I see models improving rapidly at long horizon tasks so I think it's possible. I think a benchmark which can survive a few months (maybe) would be if it genuinely tested long time-frame continual learning/test-time learning/test-time posttraining (idk honestly the differences b/t these).
But i'm not sure how to give such benchmarks. I'm thinking of tasks like learning a language/becoming a master at chess from scratch/becoming a skill artists but where the task is novel enough for the actor to not be anywhere close to proficient at beginning--an example which could be of interest is, here is a robot you control, you can make actions, see results...become proficient at table tennis. Maybe another would be, here is a new video game, obtain the best possible 0% speedrun.
The AGI bar has to be set even higher, yet again.
And that's the way it should be. We're past the "Look! It can talk! How cute!" stage. AGI should be able to deal with any problem a human can.
wow solving useless puzzles, such a useful metric!
How is spatial reasoning useless??
It's still useful as a benchmark of cost/efficiency.
But why only a +0.5% increase for MMMU-Pro?
Its possibly label noise. But you can't tell from a single number.
You would need to check to see if everyone is having mistakes on the same 20% or different 20%. If its the same 20% either those questions are really hard, or they are keyed incorrectly, or they aren't stated with enough context to actually solve the problem.
It happens. Old MMLU non pro had a lot of wrong answers. Simple things like MNIST have digits labeled incorrect or drawn so badly its not even a digit anymore.
Everyone is already at 80% for that one. Crazy that we were just at 50% with GPT-4o not that long ago.
But 80% sounds far from good enough, that's 20% error rate, unusable in autonomous tasks. Why stop at 80%? If we aim for AGI, it should 100% any benchmark we give.
I'm not sure the benchmark is high enough quality that >80% of problems are well-specified & have correct labels tbh. (But I guess this question has been studied for these benchmarks)
Are humans 100%?
If they are knowledgeable enough and pay attention, yes. Also, if they are given enough time for the task.
But the idea of automation is to make a lot fewer mistakes than a human, not just to do things faster and worse.
Actually faster and worse is a very common characterization of a LOT of automation.
That's true.
The problem is that if the automation breaks at any point, the entire system fails. And programming automations are extremely sensitive to minor errors (i.e. a missing semicolon).
AI does have an interesting feature though, it tends to self-healing in a way, when given tools access and a feedback loop. The only problem is that self-healing can incorrectly heal errors, then the final reault will be wrong in hard-to-detect ways.
So the more wuch hidden bugs there are, the nore unexpectedly the automations will perform.
I still don't trust current AI for any tasks more than data parsing/classification/translation and very strict tool usage.
I don't beleive in the full-assistant/clawdbot usage safety and reliability at this time (it might be good enough but the end of the year, but then the SWE bench should be at 100%).
It's a useless meaningless benchmark though, it just got a catchy name, as in, if the models solve this it means they have "AGI", which is clearly rubbish.
Arc-AGI score isn't correlated with anything useful.
It's correlated with the ability to solve logic puzzles.
It's also interesting because it's very very hard for base LLMs, even if you try to "cheat" by training on millions of ARC-like problems. Reasoning LLMs show genuine improvement on this type of problem.
how would we actually objectively measure a model to see if it is AGI if not with benchmarks like arc-AGI?
Give it a prompt like
>can u make the progm for helps that with what in need for shpping good cheap products that will display them on screen and have me let the best one to get so that i can quickly hav it at home
And get back an automatic coupon code app like the user actually wanted.
ARC-AGI 2 is an IQ test. IQ tests have been shown over and over to have predictive power in humans. People who score well on them tend to be more successful
IQ tests only work if the participants haven't trained for them. If they do similar tests a few times in a row, scores increase a lot. Current LLMs are hyper-optimized for the particular types of puzzles contained in popular "benchmarks".
I've been wondering for a while now: What would be the results if we had multiple LLMs run the same query and then use statistical analysis?
Best of N is a very common technique already.
this is like the doomsday clock
84% is meaningless if these things can't reason
getting closer and closer to 100%, but still can't function
> if these things can't reason
I see people talk about "reasoning". How do you define reasoning such that it is clear humans can do it and AI (currently) cannot?
Not trained for agentic workflows yet unfortunately - this looks like it will be fantastic when they have an agent friendly one. Super exciting.
Its really weird how you all are begging to be replaced by llms, you think if agentic workflows get good enough you're going to keep your job? Or not have your salary reduced by 50%?
If Agents get good enough it's not going to build some profitable startup for you (or whatever people think they're doing with the llm slot machines) because that implies that anyone else with access to that agent can just copy you, its what they're designed to do... launder IP/Copyright. Its weird to see people get excited for this technology.
None of this good. We are simply going to have our workforces replaced by assets owned by Google, Anthropic and OpenAI. We'll all be fighting for the same barista jobs, or miserable factory jobs. Take note on how all these CEOs are trying to make it sound cool to "go to trade school" or how we need "strong American workers to work in factories".
> Its really weird how you all are begging to be replaced by llms, you think if agentic workflows get good enough you're going to keep your job? Or not have your salary reduced by 50%?
The computer industry (including SW) has been in the business of replacing jobs for decades - since the 70's. It's only fitting that SW engineers finally become the target.
Is that really true? Software created an incredible amount of new types of jobs and markets.
The most gullible workforce ever (FOSS), but seeing Youtube, half the planet is braindead for handing over their craft on a platter for mere dollars.
I think a lot of people assume they will become highly paid Agent orchestrators or some such. I don't think anyone really knows where things are heading.
Why would someone get paid well for this skill? Its not valuable at all.
Highly valuable right now with how high leverage it can make a good engineer. Who knows for how long.
Most folks don't seem to think that far down the line, or they haven't caught on to the reality that the people who actually make decisions will make the obvious kind of decisions (ex: fire the humans, cut the pay, etc) that they already make.
they think they're going to be the person making that decision
but forgot there's likely someone above them making exactly the same one about them
I agree with you and have similar thoughts (maybe, unfortunately for me). I personally know people who outsource not just their work, but also their life to LLMs, and reading their exciting comments makes me feel a mix of cringe, fomo and dread. But what is the engame for me and you likes, when we finally would be evicted from our own craft? Stash money while we still can, watching 'world crash and burn', and then go and try to ascend in some other, not yet automated craft?
Yeah, that's a good question that I can't stop thinking about. I don't really enjoy much else other than building software, its genuinely my favorite thing to do. Maybe there will be a world where we aren't completely replaced, we have handmade clothes still after all that are highly coveted. I just worry its going to uproot more than just software engineering, theoretically it shouldn't be hard to replace all low hanging fruit in the realm of anything that deals with computer I/O. Previous generations of automation have created new opportunities for humans, but this seems mostly just as a means of replacement. The advent of mass transportation/vehicles created machines who needed mechanics (and eventually software), I don't see that happening in this new paradigm.
I don't think that's going to make society very pleasant if everyone's fighting over the few remaining ways to make livelihood. People need to work to eat. I certainly don't see the capitalist class giving everyone UBI and letting us garden or paint for the rest of our lives. I worry we're likely going to end up in trenches or purged through some other means.
If you want to know where it's headed, look at factory workers 40 years ago. Lots of people still work at factories today, they just aren't in the same places they were 40 years ago and now req an entirely different skill set.
The largest ongoing expense of every company is labor and software devs are some of the highest paid labor on the planet. AI will eventually drive down wages for this class of workers most likely by shipping these jobs to people in other countries where labor is much cheaper. Just like factory work did.
Enjoy the good times while they last (or get a job at an AI company).
I’m someone who’d like to deploy a lot more workers than I want to manage.
Put another way, I’m on the capital side of the conversation.
The good news for labor that has experience and creativity is that it just started costing 1/100,000 what it used to to get on that side of the equation.
If LLMs truly cause widespread replacement of labor, you’re screwed just as much as anyone else. If we hit say 40% unemployment do you think people will care you own your home or not? Do you think people will care you have currency or not? The best case outcome will be universal income and a pseudo utopia where everyone does ok. The “bad” scenario is widespread war.
I am one of the “haves” and am not looking forward to the instability this may bring. Literally no one should.
> I am one of the “haves” and am not looking forward to the instability this may bring. Literally no one should.
these people always forget capitalism is permitted to exist by consent of the people
if there's 40% unemployment it won't continue to exist, regardless of what the TV/tiktok/chatgpt says
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Well he also thinks $10.00 in LLM tokens is equivalent to a $1mm labor budget. These are the same people who were grifting during the NFTs days, claiming they were the future of art.
lmao, you are an idealistic moron. If llms can replace labor at 1/100k of the cost (lmfao) why are you looking to "deploy" more workers? So are you trying to say if I have $100.00 in tokens I have the equivalent of $10mm in labor potential.... What kind of statement is this?
This is truly the dumbest statement I've ever seen on this site for too many reasons to list.
You people sound like NFT people in 2021 telling people that they're creating and redefining art.
Oh look peter@capital6.com is a "web3" guy. Its all the same grifters from the NFT days behaving the same way.
I upvoted your comment. Love the confidence. I’ve self funded full venture studios - so I have a pretty good take on costs of innovation. You might say I was poor at deploying innovation capital; you might be right!
Anyway 100k is hyperbolic. But I’d argue just one order of magnitude. Claude max can do many things better than my last (really great) team, and is worse at some things - creative output, relationship building and conference attending most notably. It’s also much faster at the things it is good at. Like 20-50x faster than a person or team.
If I had another venture studio I’d start with an agent first, and fill in labor in the gaps. The costs are wildly different.
Back to you though - who hurt you? Your writing makes me think you are young. You have been given literal super power force extension tech from aliens this year, why not be excited at how much more you can build?
But the head honchos on ted.com said AI will create more jobs.
You don't hate AI, you hate capitalism. All the problems you have listed are not AI issues, its this crappy system where efficiency gains always end up with the capital owners.
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Well I honestly think this is the solution. It's much harder to do French Revolution V2 though if they've used ML to perfect people's recommendation algorithms to psyop them into fighting wars on behalf of capitalists.
I imagine llm job automation will make people so poor that they beg to fight in wars, and instead of turning that energy against he people who created the problem they'll be met with hours of psyops that direct that energy to Chinese people or whatever.
We will see.
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Too bad we can’t use it. Whenever Google releases something, I can never seem to use it in their coding cli product.
You can but only via Gemini Ultra plan which you can buy or Gemini API with early access.
I know, and neither of these options are feasible for me. I can't get the early access and I am not willing to drop $250 in order to just try their new model. By the time I can use it, the other two companies have something similar and I lose my interest in Google's models.
Do we know what model is used by Google Search to generate the AI summary?
I've noticed this week the AI summary now has a loader "Thinking…" (no idea if it was already there a few weeks ago). And after "Thinking…" it says "Searching…" and shows a list of favicons of popular websites (I guess it's generating the list of links on the right side of the AI summary?).
So last week I tried Gemini pro 3, Opus 4.6, GLM 5, Kimi2.5 so far using Kimi2.5 yeilded the best results (in terms of cost/performance) for me in a mid size Go project. Curious to know what others think ?
I predict Gemini Flash will dominate when you try it.
If you're going for cost performance balance choosing Gemini Pro is bewildering. Gemini Flash _outperforms_ Pro in some coding benchmarks and is the clear parento frontier leader for intelligence/cost. It's even cheaper than Kimi 2.5.
https://artificialanalysis.ai/?media-leaderboards=text-to-im...
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Off topic comment (sorry): when people bash "models that are not their favorite model" I often wonder if they have done the engineering work to properly use the other models. Different models and architectures often require very different engineering to properly use them. Also, I think it is fine and proper that different developers prefer different models. We are in early days and variety is great.
I don't get it, why is Claude still number 1 while the numbers say different, let's see that new Gemini in the terminal also
I'm really interested in the 3D STL-from-photo process they demo in the video.
Not interested enough to pay $250 to try it out though.
I do like google models (and I pay for them), but the lack of competitive agent is a major flaw in Google's offering. It is simply not good enough in comparison to claude code. I wish they put some effort there (as I don't want to pay two subscriptions to both google and anthropic)
So what happens if the AI companies can't make money? I see more and more advances and breakthrough but they are taking in debt and no revenue in sight.
I seem to understand debt is very bad here since they could just sell more shares, but aren't (either valuation is stretched or no buyers).
Just a recession? Something else? Aren't they very very big to fall?
Edit0: Revenue isn't the right word, profit is more correct. Amazon not being profitable fucks with my understanding of buisness. Not an economist.
>taking in debt and no revenue in sight.
which companies don't have revenue? anthropic is at a run rate of 14 billion (up from 9B in December, which was up from 4B in July). Did you mean profit? They expect to be cash flow positive in 2028.
Yes thank you, mixing my brushes here - I remembered one of the companies having raised over 100b and having about 10b in revenue.
AI will kill SaaS moats and thus revenue. Anyone can build new SaaS quickly. Lots of competition will lead to marginal profits.
AI will kill advertising. Whatever sits at the top "pane of glass" will be able to filter ads out. Personal agents and bots will filter ads out.
AI will kill social media. The internet will fill with spam.
AI models will become commodity. Unless singularity, no frontier model will stay in the lead. There's competition from all angles. They're easy to build, just capital intensive (though this is only because of speed).
All this leaves is infrastructure.
Not following some of the jumps here.
Advertising, how will they kill ads any better than the current cat and mouse games with ad blockers?
Social Media, how will they kill social media? Probably 80% of the LinkedIn posts are touched by AI (lots of people spend time crafting them, so even if AI doesn't write the whole thing you know they ran the long ones through one) but I'm still reading (ok maybe skimming) the posts.
> Advertising, how will they kill ads any better than the current cat and mouse games with ad blockers?
The Ad Blocker cat and mouse game relies on human-written metaheuristics and rules. It's annoying for humans to keep up. It's difficult to install.
Agents/Bots or super slim detection models will easily be able to train on ads and nuke them whatever form they come in: javascript, inline DOM, text content, video content.
Train an anti-Ad model and it will cleanse the web of ads. You just need a place to run it from the top.
You wouldn't even have to embed this into a browser. It could run in memory with permissions to overwrite the memory of other applications.
> Social Media, how will they kill social media?
MoltClawd was only the beginning. Soon the signal will become so noisy it will be intolerable. Just this week, X's Nikita Bier suggested we have less than six months before he sees no solution.
Speaking of X, they just took down Higgsfield's (valued at $1.3B) main account because they were doing it across a molt bot army, and they're not the only ones. Extreme measures were the only thing they could do. For the distributed spam army, there will be no fix. People are already getting phone calls from this stuff.
> AI will kill SaaS moats and thus revenue. Anyone can build new SaaS quickly.
I'm LLM-positive but for me this is a stretch. Seeing it pop up all over media in the past couple weeks also makes me suspect astrofurfing. Like a few years back when there were a zillion articles saying voice search was the future and nobody used regular web search any more.
AI models will simply build the ads into the responses, seamlessly. How do you filter out ads when you search for suggestions for products, and the AI companies suggest paid products in the responses?
Based on current laws, does this even have to be disclosed? Will laws be passed to require disclosure?
What happens if oil companies can't make money? They will restructure society so they can. That's the essence of capitalism, the willingness to restructure society to chase growth.
Obviously this tech is profitable in some world. Car companies can't make money if we live in walking distance and people walk on roads.
They're using the ride share app playbook. Subsidize the product to reach market saturation. Once you've found a market segment that depends on your product you raise the price to break even. One major difference though is that ride share's haven't really changed in capabilities since they launched: it's a map that shows a little car with your driver coming and a pin where you're going. But it's reasonable to believe that AI will have new fundamental capabilities in the 2030s, 2040s, and so on.
top 10 elo in codeforces is pretty absurd
We're getting to the point where we can ask AI to invent new programming languages.
Wait till we get to the point where we can ask AI to create a better AI.
Right now I'm still stuck with AI that can't even install other AI.
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Is this not yet available for workspace users? I clicked on the Upgrade to Google AI Ultra button on the Gemini app and the page it takes me to still shows Gemini 2.5 Deep Think as an added feature. Wondering if that's just outdated info
I tried to debug a Wireguard VPN issue. No luck.
We need more than AGI.
Praying this isn't another Llama4 situation where the benchmark numbers are cooked. 84.6% on Arc-AGI is incredible!
I think I'm finally realizing that my job probably won't exist in 3-5. Things are moving so fast now that the LLMs are basically writing themselves. I think the earlier iterations moved slower because they were limited by human ability and productivity limitations.
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Unfortunately, it's only available in the Ultra subscription if it's available at all.
When will AI come up with a cure / vaccine for the common cold? and then cancer next?
Race for solving baldness :D
Dutasteride already exists for that, been on it almost 10 years soon and it's great. Although if you are already bald it is kind of moot.
Gemini was awesome and now it’s garbage.
It’s impossible for it to do anything but cut code down, drop features, lose stuff and give you less than the code you put in.
It’s puzzling because it spent months at the head of the pack now I don’t use it at all because why do I want any of those things when I’m doing development.
I’m a paid subscriber but there’s no point any more I’ll spend the money on Claude 4.6 instead.
I never found it useful for code. It produced garbage littered with gigantic comments.
Me: Remove comments
Literally Gemini: // Comments were removed
It would make more sense to me if it had never been awesome.
They may quantize the models after release to save money.
It seems to be adept at reviewing/editing/critiquing, at least for my use cases. It always has something valuable to contribute from that perspective, but has been comparatively useless otherwise (outside of moats like "exclusive access to things involving YouTube").
But it can't parse my mathematically really basic personal financial spreadsheet ...
I learned a lot about Gemini last night. Namely that I have lead it like a reluctant bull to understand what I want it to do (beyond normal conversations, etc).
Don't get me wrong, ChatGPT didn't do any better.
It's an important spreadsheet so I'm triple checking on several LLM's and, of course, comparing results with my own in depth understanding.
For running projects, and making suggestions, and answering questions and being "an advisor", LLM's are fantastic ... feed them a basic spreadsheet and it doesn't know what to do. You have to format the spreadsheet just right so that it "gets it".
I dread to think of junior professionals just throwing their spreadsheets into LLM's and runninng with the answers.
Or maybe I'm just shit at prompting LLM's in relation to spreadsheets. Anyone had better results in this scenario?
You can ask the LLM to write a prompt for you. Example: "Explore prompts that would have circumvented all the previous misunderstanding."
I wish they would unleash it on the Google Cloud console. Whatever version of Gemini they offer in the sidebar when I log in is terrible.
I need to test the sketch creation a s a p. I need this in my life because learning to use Freecad is too difficult for a busy person like me (and frankly, also quite lazy)
FWIW, the FreeCAD 1.1 nightlies are much easier and more intuitive to use due to the addition of many on-canvas gizmos.
Why a Twitter post and not the official Google blog post… https://blog.google/innovation-and-ai/models-and-research/ge...
Just normal randomness I suppose. I've put that URL at the top now, and included the submitted URL in the top text.
The official blog post was submitted earlier (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46990637), but somehow this story ranked up quickly on the homepage.
@dang will often replace the post url & merge comments
HN guidelines prefer the original source over social posts linking to it.
Agreed - blog post is more appropriate than a twitter post
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Israel is not one of the boots. Deplorable as their domestic policy may be, they're not wagging the dog of capitalist imperialism. To imply otherwise is to reveal yourself as biased, warped in a way that keeps you from going after much bigger, and more real systems of political economy holding back our civilization from universal human dignity and opportunity.
Lol what? Not sure if you are defending Israel or google because your communication style is awful. But if you are defending Israel then you're an idiot who is excusing genocide. If you're defending google then you're just a corporate bootlicker who means nothing.
You edited your comment.
yup but even if i changed it back to its original version, your comment would be hard to make sense of. try writing more honestly and less in way designed to impress.
As opposed to Hamas who actually committed the genocide
Always the same with Google.
Gemini has been way behind from the start.
They use the firehose of money from search to make it as close to free as possible so that they have some adoption numbers.
They use the firehose from search to pay for tons of researchers to hand hold academics so that their non-economic models and non-economic test-time-compute can solve isolated problems.
It's all so tiresome.
Try making models that are actually competitive, Google.
Sell them on the actual market and win on actual work product in millions of people lives.
I'm sorry but this is an insane take. Flash is leading its category by far. Absolutely destroys sonnet, 5.2 etc in both perf and cost.
Pro still leads in visual intelligence.
The company that most locks away their gold is Anthropic IMO and for good reason, as Opus 4.6 is expensive AF
I think we highly underestimate the amount of "human bots" basically.
Unthinking people programmed by their social media feed who don't notice the OpenAI influence campaign.
With no social media, it seems obvious to me there was a massive PR campaign by OpenAI after their "code red" to try to convince people Gemini is not all that great.
Yea, Gemini sucks, don't use it lol. Leave those resources to fools like myself.
Dr., please tell me are we cooked? :crying-emoji
Gemini 3 Pro/Flash is stuck in preview for months now. Google is slow but they progress like a massive rock giant.
Nonsense releases. Until they allow for medical diagnosis and legal advice who cares? You own all the prompts and outputs but somehow they can still modify them and censor them? No.
These 'Ai' are just sophisticated data collection machines, with the ability to generate meh code.
The benchmark should be: can you ask it to create a profitable business or product and send you the profit?
Everything else is bike shedding.
Does anyone actually use Gemini 3 now? I cant stand its sleek salesy way of introduction, and it doesnt hold to instructions hard – makes it unapplicable for MECE breakdowns or for writing.
I use it often. Occasionally for quick questions, but mostly for deep research.
I do. It's excellent when paired with an MCP like context7.
I dont agree, Gemini 3 is pretty good, even the Lite version.
What do you use it for and why? Genuinely curious
I use Gemini Pro for basically everything. I just started learning systems biology as I didn't even know this was a subject until it came up in a conversation.
Biology is subject I am quite lacking in but it is unbelievable to me what I have learned in the last few weeks. Not even in what Gemini says exactly but in the text and papers it has led me to.
One major reason is that it has never cut me off until last night. I ran several deep researches yesterday and then finally got cut off in a sprawling 2 hour conversation.
For me it is the first model now that has something new coming out but I haven't extracted all the value from the old model that I am bored with it. I still haven't tried Opus 4.5 let alone 4.6 because I know I will get cut off right when things get rolling.
I don't think I have even logged into ChatGPT in a month now.
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It indeed departs from instructions pretty regularly. But I find it very useful and for the price it beats the world.
"The price" is the marginal price I am paying on top of my existing Google 1, YouTube Premium, and Google Fi subs, so basically nothing on the margin.
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